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Alex and Max take you on a journey through film with this discussion podcast about movies.
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Courting Complexity: A Deep Dive into Luca Guadagnino's 'Challengers'
Get ready to step onto the court with the enthralling narratives of Luca Guadagnino's "Challengers," where the suspense of tennis matches serves as a backdrop for an exploration of deeper emotional and thematic complexities. Alex and Max Fosberg, delve into the nuances of Guadagnino's storytelling, examining how the film weaves together threads of ambition, sexuality, and personal turmoil. We invite you to join our passionate discussion as we scrutinize the hypnotic score by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, and how it complements the visceral intensity of the on-screen drama, all while drawing thoughtful parallels with Guadagnino's other cinematic gems like "Call Me by Your Name" and "Bones and All."
how's it? I'm alex macaulay and I'm max fosberg, and this is, excuse the intermission a discussion show surrounding horny tennis. Luca guadagnino's new film, challengers, is out and has everyone talking about sweat, sex and house music. Ahead on this episode, we will take a deep dive into the world of challengers and then spend some time comparing it to some other Luca films, while examining his career up to this point. All that up next, on the other side of this break, this episode is brought to you by the Seattle film society.
Speaker 2:The Seattle film society is an artist run project that provides direct support and mentorship to filmmakers of all levels through screenings, educational opportunities and community initiatives. The Seattle film society strives to be a centralizing force for Seattle filmmakers.
Speaker 1:Their monthly screening event, Locals Only, is held at the Arc Lodge Cinemas in Columbia City and showcases the most exciting new voices in Seattle filmmaking. Tickets are $10 and available now via Eventbrite.
Speaker 2:To keep up with the Seattle Film Society. Be sure to check them out on Instagram and Letterboxd at Seattle Film Society or on their website, seattlefilmsocietycom.
Speaker 1:Come be a part of the next generation of Seattle filmmaking today. All right Max, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm good man. Yeah, Went and saw a nice hot, sweaty, sweaty sexy movie and I'm that was.
Speaker 1:That was the alien's repertory screening right I did go see that as well.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, and that was great. If you ever get a chance to see alien on the big screen, uh, go out and do it, because that movie looks still looks amazing equally slimy and sweaty. And yeah man a little sexy, the xenomorph yeah, a lot of xenomorph energy uh coming from uh challengers more penetration in alien than there is in a little bit more, um, okay, so.
Speaker 1:So the first order of business today is to talk more in depth about challeng Challengers. The latest film from Luca Guadagnino opened at number one at the US box office last weekend, earning $15 million domestically and $25 million worldwide. You caught the movie on a Friday night. I've read your Letterboxd review so I know you're a fan of this film. It's the most popular movie on the Letterboxd platform right now. Reviews have ranged from good to great. A lot to talk about, with this being such a highly anticipated movie. So let's start with this. Based off of my comments last week and your own ideas, based off of any previews or knowledge that you brought into your initial watch, did the film meet whatever expectations that you had for it?
Speaker 2:well, you know I I didn't have a lot of expectations because I'm a little late to the Luca train. You know, leading up to Challengers, last Friday I watched, I sat down and I watched Bones and All I watched Call Me by your Name both first time watches for me and so to really get an understanding of his style and his craft, his craft of filmmaking and man challengers was a a thrill ride Like it was. It was so fun uh to watch it. It's paced beautifully, it's extremely stylistic might be his most stylistic film, I would say, up there with bones and all in in my own, uh, personal rankings.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't necessarily mean that you were expecting that out of the film right like yeah, I mean, I didn't know and it's.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because, like, call me by your name is kind of the other, the opposite side of the spectrum, where there's still lots of style in it, but it's a lot slower, it's a lot more methodical methodical, generous with time, whereas challengers and I mean I think some of the brilliance comes from that score from Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross is is just a pacemaker, Like it is moving fast.
Speaker 2:You, whether like the scenes are fast, the the movement in the story is fast, you're jumping around in time, like you had mentioned. Um, the dialogue seems to be quicker than than his other stuff. Uh, yeah, it was. It was a ride to to sit there and and watch this on screen, like and you're locked in. Yeah, I mean from from the very beginning, because I think the sports background and having like a, especially a tennis, when it's one-on-one like that, I mean you're bouncing around. You know the metaphor is very literal when you're you know you're bouncing around in time, it's kind of going back and forth, just like playing tennis. But that sport I I thought he filmed it beautifully to where you really felt um, the speed of of everything, and I was very into it.
Speaker 1:Going back to your, your comment on time, luca films are really interesting because most of them they they push past the two hour mark and are around like two hours and ten minutes, but they can all come at you at such a different velocity. Right and so like Challengers in a good way, I feel like is almost the bowl of porridge. That's too hot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so fast, call Me by your Name is almost too cold Bones and All is sort of right there in the middle kind of goes in and out, in and out right, because there's a lot of time when you're on in bones and all when you're on the road driving in these huge vistas across the midwest. But then there's also like really intense like intense, short yeah uh yeah, mark Rylance throwing a thousand. But yeah, man, I really enjoy it. It's an adult drama for adults, yeah.
Speaker 1:Original story.
Speaker 2:Original story. Funny that you know the screenwriter is married to Celine Song, who also came up with a great love triangle. A very different love triangle and a very different movie from Challengers, but kind of interesting that that bled into both of their pieces of work this year.
Speaker 1:I I agree with that. So, in terms of being a sports film, it is an original story, and so we're. It's not like anyone knew the outcome. This isn't like we were watching miracle and we know that the team's going to win a gold medal or whatever sort of comparison you want to make. But to to other sports films, how do you think it played as a sports movie? You said that you thought the tennis action was pretty well shot. Yeah, I heard that a lot of it was computer generated.
Speaker 2:Like zendaya in some interviews has said that she rarely hit a tennis ball, could have fooled me, yeah, I I think some of the you know, and again I this goes to just like creative direction yeah, creative direction and brilliance of like, whether we're you know, you mentioned last week whether we're below the tennis player looking up or we're like, just like, the ball is coming straight at us, our pov is the ball almost that first, I think it's. It's like halfway through, maybe, when they first do that shot. And I, I I jumped in my seat. I thought I was at a 3d movie for a second. I thought the ball was coming out of the screen at me, um, and so it's, it's, it's visceral, uh.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think it's you. You kind of have to shoot tennis that way, otherwise, you know, it's a wide shot of people just running back and forth. But yeah, I thought that tennis action was really great and it's a great use of CGI and that technology to do a creative shot in something that maybe in the past would be so practical. But yeah, I thought the tennis was great. I loved that we're at Tom's Tire Town Challenger event In New Rochelle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not at Wimbledon, we're not at the US Open. It's not some big tournament. There's metal, grandstands and like a guy selling hot dogs.
Speaker 1:Well, we talk about this all the time, whether it's a film set in the world of science or a film set in the world of sports, even thinking about, like David Fincher's, the Killer from last year. If it's a world you're not familiar with, you want to be able to feel like you're kind of learning something and you can watch this movie and learn something about tennis.
Speaker 1:You learn about these different qualifying matches, these tournaments, like as someone who really likes to play tennis but who has not engaged in actively following the sport, I walked away thinking I know a little bit more about tennis and Luca, not being a fan of tennis either, I think brought that to the table as the director.
Speaker 2:I think it also because you're at this low level event.
Speaker 1:Grand prize is like 7K yeah.
Speaker 2:It's such small stakes, you know, on the quote, unquote, sports seat for the actual plot and character development or whatever the character's story.
Speaker 1:I also think that the dynamic between two players on the tennis court and then we have three principal actors in this film. So if two of them are on the court and the other one's in the stands, that right there is another triangle in and of itself.
Speaker 1:You're always going to have two people going at it physically, while all three of them are playing mind games with each other, and that's really the the through line of the entire story. Is this challenger event Like that is our present time, and so everything's leading up to that where, when the film starts, you're not sure what is this challenger event like that is our present time, and so everything's leading up to that where, when the film starts, you're not sure what the dynamic is between these three individuals, and then, as the story starts to reveal itself, you come to understand just how high the emotional stakes are of this event like what you're talking about. So I thought that all worked really, really well. The tennis is that. The action of the tennis is a great metaphor for the sexual tension, for the one-on-one battle for ends, and day does a great job.
Speaker 2:She's talking she talks about it when she's playing one of her juniors opponents at the beginning of the film.
Speaker 1:I thought that was a great moment for not only the story and for kind of shining a light on the the bigger message of what we're trying to communicate here in the film, but it was just a really, really effective moment. So then, when you take, when you take the sports stuff out of it, there's always like two different things happening in a Luca film. Right, like in Suspiria it's they really focused on the dance. There's a ton of choreography in that film. It's a dance movie, but then it's also something it's also about cannibalism, right, you go on and on and on. So the interpersonal relationships in this film.
Speaker 1:Luca does a great job in all of his movies. I think about really focusing and centralizing the audience's attention on his actors in in what feels like such a confined space like this is really a a movie that has like three big performances in it. You think about Call Me by your Name. It's Armie Hammer and it's Timothee Chalamet, and then, yes, you do get Michael Storberg and the dad and the parents and other people who are on the property with them during that summer. But there's really not too many Bones and All is really the only time where there's like tertiary characters that are just kind of coming and going people that you meet along the way.
Speaker 1:Challengers really doesn't have any anything like that, and so that's something that I've really been reflecting on in the last week is that, like three people really just carried this entire movie. That's two hours and 10 minutes long, that's a huge achievement.
Speaker 2:It is huge and and yeah that it is a small cast when you think about it, right, like it's big movie small cast. Yeah, Uh, and again, I think that helps you focus in. Right, You're not worried about this side character over here that comes in and and you know know, has a cup of coffee. Like you are focused in on these three and you want to know where these three are at all times did you find yourself rooting for anybody? In particular out of the three characters.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny they have art donaldson, who's like a retired, not retired, he's. He's getting to the later stages of his pro career. He's won a couple of major tournaments, so you're like fading superstar player of a tenant, of a tennis player. You have your just like screw off semi-party boy party boy patrick veague yes, and pat, and then Zendaya as Tashi, who could have had it all Right Career-ending injury, it's so crazy that she doesn't even get the career.
Speaker 2:No Right, I mean, she gets hurt in this movie. Spoilers. She gets hurt in this movie in college. I mean she doesn't even go pro.
Speaker 1:But because she was such a phenom, her legacy like is so big already it'd be like if lebron got hurt right rookie year in the nba or totally yeah, um who was I rooting for? Yeah?
Speaker 2:that's an interesting question, because I think at first you're you're kind of told to root for art yes um, he comes off as like the nice guy, but he, he also does some you know, uh, slimy things. Right, because patrick is like slimy on on on top, like from from the beginning he is, he's drooling over tashi, he, you know, he smokes cigarettes we party when he's like kind of unsheltered, living out of his car right, yeah, he he is.
Speaker 2:You know he's going on tinder dates and fucking, you know, partying before a a big match, but um trying to finesse a bacon, egg and cheese off of, like the lady signing him in dude dunkin donuts should write uh, luca, a huge check, because that sandwich looked real tasty.
Speaker 2:They don't look like that in real life. And then Tosh is, like you know. She is someone who is just like so ruthless. She's such a killer that you almost like can't root for her either. So I think at first I was rooting for art, and then art does some like you know, um questionable questionable yeah, yeah, in the second act when they go to college.
Speaker 1:Like he is manipulating the situation, putting a divide between tashi totally totally um then.
Speaker 2:So then you're kind of rooting for Patrick, but then Patrick is just a fucking dick. Yeah, like he, and. And then you're like okay, well, maybe I'll go with Toshi, but Toshi's does bad things too. She's unfaithful.
Speaker 1:She's terrible, toshi, I think is. It's interesting because and this is why I was indecisive on how I felt about the Zendaya performance last week when I talked about the film where I said and there's a world in which she gets nominated for an Oscar and there's a world in which she gets nominated for a Razzie because her performance is just so interesting, because she's great at making you not like her.
Speaker 1:I feel like she's the last person who you should be rooting for in this situation, for all the reasons that you just detailed, should be rooting for in this situation, for all the reasons that you just detailed. So then I do kind of find myself, I think, at the end of it still you're rooting for really like the friendship between art and patrick to still be there, even though you know it's sort of impossible. But then that's what makes the, the climactic scene, the end scene of the film, so great, because there is some sort of resolution that's reached between the two of them and it's just done in such a fun and unique way. And then this can kind of start to lead into us talking about the way that the film is, is not only shot but edited and scored, because that is really where I feel like the movie, and the word I used last week and I'll use again here is just like it's arresting at times and whether or not you know.
Speaker 1:You had the reaction where you're the balls coming at you. You haven't seen that before, or whatever, or you're just. You get wide eyed a little bit because you're seeing something that you haven't seen before. And then, obviously, the thing that and just to kind of speak on how I'm seeing the film responded to I haven't seen a bad review of it yet and everyone loves the score. That is catching me so off guard, because I thought that people would be like I, like Trent and Atticus whether or not they were Nine Inch Nails fans before they started really focusing on film composition or not is sort of beside the point now, but this is like this is industrial house music that plays throughout this film and I just thought that it would rub some people the wrong way. Everyone's loving it, it's great workout music.
Speaker 1:I can't believe I've tested it.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:I saw a vulture article today that said that the score for challenger should be playing in the club right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I I really think, again, I think the music is is perfect and and helps you lock in as well. Right, because it gives a heartbeat to the film and helps with that pace, even though, again, it is a two-hour movie. You never feel it and I really think it's because of that score and it's always just upbeat and keeping you, keeping you upbeat and and you know the the part I think the part you were talking about last week is when Tashi and Patrick get into their fight at Stanford.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's the big one.
Speaker 2:And and the music comes up. I loved it. I thought it was. I thought it was brilliantly done because A it does signal to us like I thought it was brilliantly done because A it does signal to us like, oh, things have just ratcheted up. But then it takes you right into that next action scene beautifully and it's almost like the music that boxers walk out to before they get into the ring. It really sets you up perfectly.
Speaker 1:I can't believe how much I've listened to the score outside of thinking about the movie, like I'm just playing that music now off my phone on Bluetooth, as I would any other normal music that I'm listening to throughout the week, and so that's been a true testament to how the film has then stuck with me, because we obviously wouldn't have the music without um, we wouldn't have the music without the film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, in in terms of being a, a Luca Guadagnino movie, after kind of doing a little bit of a deep dive, where do you think it stacks up as far as like one that can pack the emotional punch that some of his I don't want to say like more successful films, because this may end up being one of his more successful films, but in terms of movies that have been recognized at the Academy Awards or that have garnered him international fame, now, up until this point, do you think that it is just so propulsive that people are going to eat it up for everything that is like all the dressing, or do you think that this is a movie that is going to continue to resonate with people because of the character study, because I think that like something like Call Me by your Name helped so many people feel seen, and then something like Suspiria is such a homage to a classic film and then it's done in such a different and unique way and we can, you know, go into some of his other movies later.
Speaker 1:But just in terms of challengers, do you think that there is like they? Do you think that there will be the longevity to this film, aside from all the technical things that we're we're really fond of?
Speaker 2:Hmm, I, all the technical things that we're, we're really fond of, hmm, I think, I think it really depends on where, on what Zendaya does next, I think, because this will be, if you know, she goes on to become one of the great movie stars of our of our time, yeah. This will be the the point where we were like oh, she carried she carried independent film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this film On her own.
Speaker 2:This is where she kind of grows up. She's not in high school in the Spider-Man movies anymore. She's not, you know, on Arrakis.
Speaker 1:On.
Speaker 2:Arrakis riding worms. She is a grown person in this film so I think it really depends on what happens with her. But I would hope that people keep it around, keep it alive for the character study, because I do think A writing, any sort of love triangle, is a very classic thing to do in Hollywood but also a very hard thing to do, Especially when you try to focus on the ugly side of people's lust and desires and the way that they treat each other, and I think that that's what this movie does.
Speaker 1:You can feel like it's dramatized a little bit through some of the characters' actions where they would never do that. She would never leave her hotel room in the middle of the night to go meet up with this guy. People do this shit all the time, I'm telling you, and so there's that part of it that again, I was like kudos to her and this you know, she's never been afraid to tackle sensitive and taboo and intense subjects.
Speaker 2:Just look at euphoria yeah, so I think it's even a graduation from that. I think it is.
Speaker 1:I do think it is yes because you know that character, the, the character of rue on euphoria. We get to see her story be told over what's been two seasons now. There's a lot of investment in these three characters that in the, the entire thing is anchored by her. I agree, In two hours the investment is real by the time everything reaches. When you get that final come on from her and the movie ends, you feel fulfilled, I think, as a moviegoer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yes and no, right. I wanted to see what was next Interesting, okay, I wanted to see the conversation that would happen next.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, though always leave them wanting more yeah but I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 2:You do feel like okay, you can accept the ending.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay.
Speaker 2:But yes, you do want more, which, again, I think, hopefully is a good thing for people.
Speaker 1:So are you surprised by the reception that the film has gotten so far. I haven't seen like a. I haven't seen a negative review from anybody that I follow on letterbox. I haven't heard any bad word of mouth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you know it's, it's a promising it's. It's it's always a good sign when an adult drama that comes out in April can can have such good return on it. But I also think Luca is kind of a filmmaker that has like a perfect score right now. I mean, you know, apart from maybe like the Suspiria remake I feel like that was like the most shit he's ever taken. But but that was because, you know, at that time when that came out, like A, I don't think we really knew Luca as well as we do now and B, that was a remake of such a beloved cult classic day to me.
Speaker 2:You know that movie ages like fine wine with every day it ages so well. And going back and watching that or at least I watched at least half of it yeah, it is again just a very. He's such a much like Yorgos, he is just such a wonderful stylistic like I don't care what the rules are, I'm going to make this film that I see in my head kind of you can. You can see that on the screen like he, he can. He puts his fingerprints. There's nothing vanilla about luca I love that, I it's.
Speaker 1:it's so exciting right now because if you were going to tell me 15 years ago, so like early 2010s, you were going to tell me that you know, and yeah, right around there 2010 area that a film scored by Trent Reznor that featured industrial house music and it was a love triangle centered in the world of tennis and and it's directed by a gay man, was going to be the number one movie at the box office and have people talking.
Speaker 2:I would say, like what sort of Alex McCauley utopia are you trying to convince me out there that it's actually going to exist?
Speaker 1:And yet I think, because of this slow natural progression that we've seen from Luca, where he's telling these different stories, that all do have common themes throughout them, a lot of commonalities really we've gotten to the point where something like this can be success, where he can pull it off, where I think you're right like pretty pretty much a perfect track record up until this point, because he doesn't do anything. I feel like that he feels uncomfortable with, or that his actors feel uncomfortable with, because you watch something like Suspiria and Dakota Johnson is allowed to cook in that film. And now you know how I feel about.
Speaker 2:DJ.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people might not have entrusted the role of Susie Banyan to her at that point in her career, but again he kind of has. He has that relationship with her from a bigger splash. You look at somebody like Timothee Chalamet and the relationship that they've developed Call Me by your Name and then Bones and All the trust is so apparent there. And we always talk about this right when we love, when people kind of have their camp and that maybe not. You don't have to make every single movie with the same people of have their camp and that maybe not. You don't have to make every single movie with the same people. But it's like a coach and a player where, like, you get Greg Popovich and Tim Duncan together for a decade and a half and you're going to get greatness every now and then.
Speaker 2:Well, it's going to be really interesting. Do you know anything about his next film?
Speaker 1:Nothing.
Speaker 2:It's called Queer and it stars Daniel Craig. Okay. It's called Queer and it stars Daniel Craig, same screenwriter as Challengers Justin I can't remember his last name and it's, I believe, set in the 80s, about a heroin addict who falls in love with a young man.
Speaker 1:So again, we are just like. So here we go. This is what I'm saying. If you were going to tell me that, daniel? Craig host James Bond would take on a role like this. I bet you're lying, You're joking. This is too good to be true.
Speaker 2:But I think I think people are ready to line up to work with Luca because a he he's not afraid Like like I said earlier, he's he's not afraid to to really go hard on his style, on stuff that you know, I think I feel like most studios or filmmakers are uncomfortable to to shoot and you know, there's nothing vanilla there's, it is, there's no, there's nothing boring about a Luca film, and yeah it's. It's just really exciting to have a filmmaker like him doing, doing big budget stuff like this.
Speaker 1:Even when something like Call Me by your Name is moving at its slowest pace, like I think about the second half of that film.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's still so much to feast your eyes on.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful. It's such a beautiful looking film. It's one of the to feast your eyes on, I think. Beautiful. I think it's such a beautiful looking film.
Speaker 1:It's it's one of the most beautiful looking films I've ever seen. There's one scene in particular where um, elio and oliver are have rode their bicycles into town and they're walking around the monument.
Speaker 1:They're walking around the monument and it's a one-er yep doesn't cut for like five or six minutes, maybe even longer, and there's just so much on rewatch, especially in the moment. I don't blame you if you don't pick up on it, but on rewatch there's so much happening the way not only they are kind of like dueling with each other, not only with their words, but in this physical space, moving, moving around this monument, and then in the background there's cars driving.
Speaker 1:There's people walking around going in and out of buildings. The camera's panning up to look at the top of the building. Coming back down, we get back on the bikes and we ride away. My goodness.
Speaker 2:In the moment. While I was watching this with Kaylee, I was just like look at all this, look at this composition, look at what's going on here, like what, what choreography you know, and we're just, we're just go, we're just moving Like it's just, and again, it helps you.
Speaker 1:That kind of filmmaking helps you get lost in the plot, in the story, and that that is what filmmaking is about it's so fun too because he balances scenes like that with almost the meme, the meme ability of like the timothy chalamet psychedelic furs love my way dancing scene that you see everywhere. Um Tashi Zendaya and challengers has has a very similar scene where she's dancing to.
Speaker 2:Nelly.
Speaker 1:Houghton here and I know that once this movie goes to digital, that's gonna be a clip that you get a bunch, because she's just kind of allowed to like do her thing like an awkward teenager would be doing, like in 2000, I think it's like six or seven kind of around the time that that's supposed to take place, which is so funny because first off, like nelly haughton here is still played at weddings today, and so I'm like it was definitely being played a couple years after its release in that moment.
Speaker 1:Um so so I love that there are there's. There's always in his movies room to have fun, but then there's also always space. There's tons of space in his movies room to have fun, but then there's also always space there's tons of space in his movies to be vulnerable as an audience member so much heartbreak bones and all is the one that you really responded to when you went back and watched these films. Um, this week, in preparation to familiarize yourself with lucas, talk about your experience with that one.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean that. So that one is it's so, I don't know. I I feel like I'm I'm responding a lot to road movies lately, right, and that is. You know, civil war was a big road movie.
Speaker 1:Sidebar favorite part in civil war. I haven't talked to you about this yet. When saw it?
Speaker 2:underpass and in the most crude graffiti ever ghost dealers. Yep, dude, I I I laughed in the theater and nudged our buddy tim. I was like alex is gonna love that.
Speaker 2:Well, you got him right because that probably bumped it up half a star in my letterbox, I digress but um bones and all is a fantastic road movie it's so good man, I, I, I and I feel so bad that I slept on it the year it came out, because we were doing this goddamn show and, like I don't even know why, I I was advocating for it.
Speaker 1:You were my number two. Number two movie only behind kimmy, because I'm a sicko. But bones and all bones are you're a sicko as well.
Speaker 2:man like this is like a. It's so crazy Cause he turns cannibals, he makes. It's almost like he wanted to make a movie about vampires, but he was like I want to ground it more in reality. So what's the closest thing to a vampire? A cannibal? And then, and we're in this world where, like these cannibals, like they can smell from miles away.
Speaker 2:That's my favorite part about the film is the subtle world building that he creates with that story. It's a thing that goes on in this world and it's a great and I know because it's a road movie. We have a destination that we're trying to get to, but then it continues after that and I love that.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad that you know maybe less like challengers where you know you could have stopped the film after we go find mom right in bones and all in bones and all yep yep, um, but the fact that we continue on and like and again, it just gets you so emotionally invested and you're like, yes, look at they're doing it, they moved in together, they found jobs.
Speaker 1:That's my, that's. One of my favorite interactions between Taylor Russell's character and Timothy Chalamet's character is when they're talking to each other and they just say let's just be people for a little while let's just be people yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you could have ended it almost with that conversation, but then you still get to see them, yeah, and then, and it just leads to an incredible, incredibly intense just disturbing sequence at the end.
Speaker 2:And then like, and, but then, but then again, because they're cannibals. And when Timmy is laying on the ground and he's bleeding out and he's like, I want you to eat me Bones and all, and you're just like eat him. Yeah, fucking, eat him. Yes, do it for love. Yes, it's so crazy that he's able to trick you into being like yeah, that's normal. Trick you into being like yeah, that's normal. This is you gotta do. Like that's the only way to to, to save the savor this, this relationship, this beautiful relationship you've built.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, bones and all was I was blown away by it. Uh, and like again, timothy Chalamet, you know I know he can do Dune, you know, I, I, and then watching, call me by youret, you know, I know he can do Dune, you know, and then, watching, call Me by your Name. You know, he's wonderful in that, but really, in Bones and All, like, he is just like such, he is like the pixie boy, dream boat, right, dream boat, right, like where, a lot of times that's the, the, uh, what you have, your, your, your lead female character. Be right like he. He's so good in that role.
Speaker 1:Um, and yeah, I don't know, it blew me away, uh one of my favorite lines is when they're in the diner and she says something to him like you were really closed off yesterday or whatever, and he's like when you're 140 pounds soaking wet, you have to have a big attitude or something, yeah, something to that extent yeah uh, when I rewatched it I was like, yeah, this is, this is great stuff and an incredible trent and atticus score in that movie absolutely really good stuff there.
Speaker 1:I think that I think that the thing that that people need to understand about bones and all and that is also very similar in julia ducarnu's film raw is that both times the directors they sought out to make a movie that explored a taboo in a way that didn't paint its characters as taboo people, where, like it, just tried to give a personality well, except, I would say except for the, except for rylance maybe well, not rylance rylance.
Speaker 2:I mean we could go down a whole rabbit hole about him. But uh, michael stuhlberg in bones and all, yeah, that is kind of what you picture as a cannibal, sure, that character yes, yes, yes which I think is actually really smart, that that you you have it both ways right like the. This is like the. Okay, back roads like yeah, backwoods, hillbilly person eaten person kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But then you also have these, these two kids, who are just like it's, like it's, it's like a disease, I guess. Um, yeah, uh, but yeah, yeah, I, I agree that he does.
Speaker 1:He does subvert your expectations of what a cannibal would be well, I really liked to the kind of the comparison to your ghost, because I guess you would, by definition, label them as genre filmmakers, because they are. They are making movies that don't appeal to the masses. They're. They're beginning to, and that's fantastic. Oscar nominations go a long way. Of course they're beginning to, and that's fantastic. Oscar nominations go a long way, of course.
Speaker 1:Getting A-list actors to helm your projects helps a ton. And yet at the same time you have to be we've used the word vulnerable. You have to be receptive to a lot of the messages in both of these different films. But something like Suspiria, something like Bones and All feature, I mean, those are like horror films. Oh, they're straight up.
Speaker 1:Suspiria has some incredible body horror in it, like remarkable stuff, especially in the final act, extremely physical. And then the opening scene not the opening scene, but your first big kind of horror set piece, which is, um, just not Jessica Harper, excuse me um, dakota Johnson doing the protagonist like rehearsal dance basically, where she and again it's so great the twist that they put on Suspiria where you're not sure if she knows exactly that she's like conjuring up the powers to to torment Olga, this other girl who is, who is in the process of leaving the studio. Um, just remarkable stuff in that scene. And then the end scene. They literally had to color scale it, um, to have to have like an all red filter so that the blood wouldn't give the film an nc-17 rating which is incredible, the bones and all finale scene.
Speaker 1:Finale scene when Taylor Russell's pulling out Mark Rylance's insides.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whoa, oh, my gosh and the score is very similar to in Gone Girl when that scene is happening. Some parallels there there. But so you, you think about scenes like that, you think about the emotional damage, maybe that something like like you have to be ready to to examine yourself and your own beliefs and your own heartbreak and your own past in something like call me by your name a bigger splash to a lesser extent, but still like these. These are movies are. You wouldn't necessarily just recommend them to everyone, much like you wouldn't just recommend a killing, the killing of a sacred deer to your neighbor.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And so when you think about it like that, you know we're living in this great time of sort of the auteur director I feel like Is Luca on the Mount Rushmore right now? Like where would you place him? Or do we have? Does he have other contemporaries? Like if you're going, like if you were at school talking to somebody about hey, you know, I just did a deep dive into luca. Like tell me some of the other, like maybe international filmmakers that you like, or types of movies that you like, or some of your favorites from the last 15 years. Like because I feel like some people listening to this podcast right now are like, oh, dang, dang, I need to go back and rewatch some of these or seek them out, because a lot of these movies probably aren't what the log line on IMDb leads you to believe that it's about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, obviously, I think, uh, your ghost is kind of the one-to-one with Luca, but I mean you could even throw in someone like rose glass uh, who of course had a movie come out this year.
Speaker 1:love lies bleeding also did saint maude love lies, bleeding, feels a little bit like bones and all a little bit right.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know I I would also if we're thinking of international filmmakers, and you know I'm not the biggest fan of this person. But then again, maybe I need to go back and re-examine. Is Nicholas Wending-Rempf.
Speaker 1:Well, you're going to have a lot of time and opportunity to do that next week.
Speaker 2:That's very true, because we are diving into Ryan Gosling next week and, uh, he tends to work with with, uh, that gentleman quite a bit Um so I, I think he's, he's probably kind of a contemporary of of Luca and and Yorgos. Um, you know, I I think on a smaller scale, I, someone who I don't think has had the Yorgos or the Luca moment, is Lars Von Thier.
Speaker 1:Or, if they have, it's maybe past. Yeah, and that the peak of something like melancholia melancholia, antichrist yeah. What kind of the moments?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but like? Were they even like celebrate films, like in the award?
Speaker 1:circuit Melancholia.
Speaker 2:Melancholia was it really was?
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially at international festivals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say someone like that. So yeah, I would kind of throw those names around, I guess. But again, for me it's like Luca and Yorgos are kind of this next class, maybe behind you know the PTAs, the Finchers, the Tarantinos. You know, if we've got the Masters up top with Scorsese, you know De Palma, fucking Spielberg, coppola, then we come down a level to you know again Coppola, tarantino, fincher, pta. I think Luca and Yorgos are that next level on the pyramid.
Speaker 1:I think that Luca lands for me somewhere between. I wasn't even thinking of De Palma, but from the brat pack of guys in the 70s there, american filmmakers, there's some De Palma in luca's work. I also think that gaspar, no, is a big gaspar.
Speaker 2:No is a great influence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can, and maybe it's just the music. I'm sure it is a lot to do with the music, but so much of me has been fighting back the urge to spend two hours watching climax this week, just because I think climax and challengers make a very, very interesting double feature. Um and and again, a lot of that has to do with the music and the choreography.
Speaker 2:Climax and Suspiria Make a perfect double feature, absolutely, absolutely so.
Speaker 1:So I think that there's something there between the two of them, but it's just, it's. It's really fun it, but it's just, it's really fun, it's really really fun. A film that I haven't talked about yet and that we haven't really talked too much about in Luca's career is A Bigger Splash. That is the remake of a 1969 film called La Piscine, which translates to the Swimming Pool, which I love. This has been on my top four favorites on Letterboxd for the better part of like a year now. This is a movie where I I think, if you want to go back and see some of luca's inspirations, the, the steamy, romantic, forbidden love, adult, like semi-erotic drama, is where luca eats, and that's also where, like my interest, just I think that when done right, that is maybe my favorite sub genre of dramatic filmmaking is.
Speaker 1:Is that, is that like mystery, thriller, romance. So I cannot recommend Lapa scene enough. It is. It's a five-star movie for me. I think what? What Luca did wrong in a bigger splash, if you've seen that film. First off, he takes it out of the french riviera and he sets it in italy, and now we understand why because luca is italian and he's found great success there with other projects.
Speaker 1:However, what is so effective about the source material is that the four parties who are involved with this love triangle they are really yeah, it's still a love triangle, but there's four people involved is that it's this isolation we are in, like a villa on the French Riviera that is secluded from all these other people. A bigger splash sets it more in this community.
Speaker 1:And so you do have not so much other characters entering and exiting the screen, but there's just. There's more room and space for these desires that end up manifesting to feel less authentic, whereas in in the swimming pool, um in la pasine, you can really feel why the characters sure would end up feeling this way about each other. So a bigger splash is one to me from luca that I should go back and revisit it. I know that um sean Sean fantasy, somebody who we really like, um, another podcaster, someone whose taste we really respect, he went back and rewatched and gave it five stars letterbox.
Speaker 1:So I was like maybe I'm missing something here, but at the same time I'm still kind of trusting um, my own, my own take on that from think some people are like that is sort of a little bit of cause that that predates. Call me by your name and so they're kind of like that is sort of where this all started where it all began.
Speaker 1:So I do. I do appreciate, first off, that he is paying respect. That is obviously like a big influence on him and that that type of filmmaking. So again that type of filmmaking. So again it's Dakota Johnson, it's Tilda Swinton, it's it's Ray Fines Like there's no reason why I shouldn't like this movie. It's just I don't know. We got it, we got to find the right time and place. Good summer watch, though. So so when you think about challengers, when you think about Luca, we don't really have ghost is coming again. Your ghost is coming, but we have like the planet of the apes movie.
Speaker 1:We have some other things that are kind of going to maybe like conquer, that are that are that are going to have their moment inevitably. But do you think that, challengers, do you think that this will be one of the early year releases, like kind of in the first two quarters of the film, of the release schedule, that has some staying power to bring it around full circle? We got to talk Oscars predictions. Do you think this will be one that people remember in six months when things like that are getting brought up again?
Speaker 2:I hope so. I think it will have a pretty big second life on streaming just because of the time that it's coming out right and it'll go to amazon. It's sunny, yeah, it will go to amazon free with prime yep but, like we're coming into the summer months, people are outside playing tennis. True, this might actually get more people to go try tennis please get the pickleballers off my fucking courts.
Speaker 2:Don't like wiffle balls. No, I think it will, and especially when you have such a star like Zendaya, who goes by one name yeah, one of the last. It could be the last person ever to really have that moniker. I could be the last person ever to really have that moniker. Um, you know, I I think it will have a, a, a lasting impression over the summer. I hope it gets recognized, uh, at the Oscars, I think. I think Trent and Atticus are are a lock.
Speaker 1:If that score gets nominated, I'm going to lose my mind, because I think it's a lock. You have to. In reality, what you're doing is just nominating a Nine Inch Nails electronic dance music album for best score. You have to they are Once again, I'm telling you that is my utopia, right there. I don't know what I did to deserve this.
Speaker 2:You better start believing in utopias. You're living in one. My God. To deserve this, you better start believing in utopias. You're living in one. Oh my god. No, they are the best in the business right now. I mean, they really are.
Speaker 1:You know, they definitely have the respect.
Speaker 2:And they do their versatility in projects. I mean think about it with something like mank, then to a pixar movie with soul yeah and then you know, and now you have challengers, which is the exact opposite of something like soul, uh and mank yes um, yeah, I I. I think they have to be nominated. I would love to see luca get nominated for director which I think he was for.
Speaker 1:No, not call me by your name. Luca only has one Oscar nomination and it is for call me by your name, but he was a producer on the film and it was nominated for best picture.
Speaker 2:Okay, um, I think, I think it probably will get a best picture. I mean, are there going to be 10 other films that are better than challengers this year?
Speaker 1:I don't know, we'll see. I really don't know how high I am on this year, but I think that this one I was talking to a few people about this we got one. Yeah, like as far as highly anticipated and living up to to the bill, we got one with challengers. I think it did everything it needed to do, so I hope that it's nominated for best picture as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you know it's interesting that you were talking about Zendaya either getting an Oscar or a Razzie. I don't think she was. I don't think she's Razzie worthy, not performative enough. Yeah, I don't think it was over the top, I thought she was actually very in control, okay, and you know, whenever she was on screen, she, she was business, you know she was cold, she was stern, she was she. Can I?
Speaker 1:can I tell you, for me, the scene that I think was like an 11 out of 10 was when she goes back to their hotel room after the party, after the juniors party, yeah, and the first sort of romantic spark happens between the three of them. I thought that that scene was electric. At that moment I was like we are doing something special here.
Speaker 2:It's crazy there were other moments.
Speaker 1:Have you watched the trailer for the for this? Yet I've gone back and watched the trailer for challenger.
Speaker 2:Cause, yeah, I mean that that scene is think if they wouldn't have showed that in the, in the trailer.
Speaker 1:And I love it, Cause I've never I didn't see any of that.
Speaker 2:I had no idea what was coming there. Yeah Cause I, as soon as you know, I.
Speaker 1:I've seen the still image of her on the bed in between them. So I figured once the scene started that we were going to get obviously that still capture in this moment. But I thought that that was so well executed and I thought all of them were on their a game as far as performance, yeah, yeah, well, that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:The the two guys do an excellent job as well. I mean, I feel like we've heard about mike foss, forever and ever and ever, as being like a stage, a great stage actor that's why they pulled him for west side story a couple years ago you know and, but then he doesn't really do, he hasn't done a ton.
Speaker 1:You're going to get him in the bike riders.
Speaker 2:brother, I cannot fucking wait to see him back in the bike riders. I can't wait for the bike riders. It's coming and yeah, I thought he was great. Josh O'Connor, a guy I have, no, I guess he was on the Crown. Josh O'Connor, you know, a guy I have no. I guess he's like was on the crown or something.
Speaker 1:One of those shows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of those, one of those elegant shows that a sicko like me, doesn't watch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the elegant television programming of the 2020s.
Speaker 2:But I thought he was. He was captivating too and, like just all three of them, were electric. Now I think Zendaya is probably the only one to stand a chance to get any sort of nomination, because I feel like the other two would be competing against each other for supporting which I don't think you know why even run them in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they cannibalize each other, no pun intended.
Speaker 2:Right and, and you know, even though it's about a love triangle and really three characters, it it's mainly we're mainly focused on on tosh and her, her manipulative journey her ability to touch every side of the triangle absolutely um, so yeah, man, I I hope, I hope it gets recognized.
Speaker 2:I hope you know. But also, like I feel like a lot of movies have been coming out in this first or second quarter, you know, in the past couple of years, and it does have the same power until the end of the year. You know something like Dune. You know part two is going is going to be there. Challengers should definitely be there as well.
Speaker 1:That's something too, too. That's interesting. The success of Dune part two come award season could really help benefit the success of something like Challengers, because Zendaya, yeah, she's in both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really do think we might be witnessing her ascent her full ascendance. Yeah, yeah, I agree um yeah, but then again, you know, hey, again you got a yorgos film with fucking emma stone coming out and I'm sure there'll be another film where annette benning swims the english channel and I can't wait for naiad to bigger way, a bigger wave.
Speaker 1:I've worked really hard on that script yeah, oh, okay to to swim, to two waves to swim. I hope it does too. I hope that. I hope that once this hits on demand, everyone checks it out. Still plenty of time to see it in theaters again. See it in a theater if you can, if you're willing, because I haven't heard any negative reaction. So I think it's one of those experiences that you can kind of have that brings you together with whoever you see it with because you're gonna.
Speaker 1:This is one. This is a movie. I feel like that's impossible to walk out and not talk to somebody about Right After you've seen it. Yeah, it's not like you just go on with the rest of your day. I mean honest or the rest of your week without hearing the music, without thinking about some of the imagery I mean also thinking about the next couple of months on, until Kinds of Kindness, kinds of Kindness, kinds of. Kindness, kinds of kindness.
Speaker 2:Kinds of kindness. Kinds of kindness what, on a prestigious level, is going to hit the height of Challengers?
Speaker 1:I mean other than Twisters? Probably nothing.
Speaker 2:Twisters played before the Challengers, that was my first time seeing.
Speaker 1:I think, I talked about this last week too. Unbelievable the Twisters trailer in IMAX.
Speaker 2:Oh, I can't imagine.
Speaker 1:It's different. Oh oh, I can't imagine different. Oh, I can't imagine. I can't wait. I'm gonna see that, we're going to see that in imax. Yes, together hooping and hollering the entire time listeners if you want to join us, we'll get back to you on dates and a time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah we've got a lot of junk food coming up and I'm excited I'm I, you know, after seeing the kingdom of the planet of the apes trailer for the 1800th time, I think I'm in, you think you're in, I think I think I've finally come around on the concept of evolution august, I think I well, let me back up a little bit.
Speaker 1:I think, like june through august, when it comes to genre filmmaking is going to be so strong, and I've had my flag planted on this hill for a while now. But just talking to somebody the other day about because I was this was the whole discussion on like we got one. We got one with challengers, and I was like, and hopefully it's the first of like 12 really, really strong genre movies this year and they're like well, what else is coming out? And so then I was like well, there's this movie called Long Legs, directed by Oz Perkins, it's going to be awesome. There's a movie called Cuckoo it's going to be awesome. We're going to get stuff like A Quiet Place Day One. I'm starting to see more and more promos for that.
Speaker 1:That's going to be really cool. Maxine is coming. That's going to be really really cool. So all of that's going to hit during the two, and so I I do think you're right we still probably have another month or two of of lulls in between, like big moments, so I think the challengers will continue to have a moment here. I think it's gonna.
Speaker 2:It's gonna, you know, hang out around the two, three spot in the box office, I think for a month, yes, at least agreed, agreed um, which is really exciting.
Speaker 1:What might any? Any final thoughts on challengers before we wrap up uh, please go see it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go check it out.
Speaker 1:If you are a adult and you're interested in throuples, go check it out and then hit us up if you want to play some tennis, not have a love triangle but, play some tennis. Um, okay, the film that might take its spot at the box office number one at least number one at the box office this upcoming weekend would be the Fall Guy.
Speaker 2:The Fall Guy.
Speaker 1:Gosling. So what we're going to do next week Max already alluded to it, but we will be discussing the Fall Guy and we will celebrate the career of our favorite Ken.
Speaker 2:Ryan Gosling.
Speaker 1:Gosling is somebody who we've had in our lives.
Speaker 2:A long time.
Speaker 1:Basically our entire time of being sentient in the world of movies, paying attention and caring about stuff. So that's going to be a really fun, interesting conversation to have because we're going to do our personal top fives. Which Gosling is one of these guys where he especially early in his career and even into sort of this back half. He's not afraid to take on a project that is going to stir up some controversy.
Speaker 2:So that's very true. That's going to be fun. We have a special guest coming on for that episode. No, I was, I threw on.
Speaker 1:Please tell me only, god forgives gangster squad.
Speaker 2:Oh boy, I might. I might be going on a rant of why that is a noir masterpiece that should be celebrated from the filmmaker that brought you venom ruben fleischer, you can do this, no one's stopping gangster squad is an experience and gosling's doing a lot in that movie.
Speaker 1:I love it. The guy has something that I was looking at those credits I think like 44 starring roles, and so that's a lot for us to chew on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's some really good stuff in there, and there's also some fun stuff. I think like I can't wait. Listen, this is going to turn in next week. She's going to turn into the fracture.
Speaker 2:Okay, have you seen fracture? Absolutely, absolutely. That's an incredible thriller, was sir tony?
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, um, okay, so that'll be a lot of fun. Next week we are gonna have a special guest come on for that episode, a returning guest here to the eti studio, so we're really excited about that. In the meantime, follow eti on instagram and the two of us on letterboxd to track what we are watching between shows, and we'll talk to you next time. On Excuse the Intermission, where movies still matter.
