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Alex and Max take you on a journey through film with this discussion podcast about movies.
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LIVE Filmmaker Interviews from the Tacoma Film Festival PART 1
What if the power of storytelling could reshape societal structures and preserve cultural legacies? Join us as we uncover the creative processes behind "Wild Dreams" with filmmakers Kwabi Amoa-Foreson and Derek Nunn. These talented directors take us on a journey from the intimate setting of a private screening to the grand stage of the Tacoma Film Festival, where they blend drama and comedy to challenge the audience's perceptions of diversity and inclusion. Through their narrative, we touch on the nuanced portrayal of societal violence and the importance of opening up meaningful conversations about representation.
In another inspiring tale, a first-time actor emerges onto the cinematic stage, discovering the magic of non-verbal communication and authentic storytelling through a short film project. We explore the challenges they faced, including the ever-present imposter syndrome, and share valuable advice for aspiring filmmakers striving to craft stories that truly resonate. Drawing inspiration from filmmaker Alex Garland, we emphasize the significance of staying true to one's narrative, breaking down the art of conveying complex emotions through micro-expressions and physical acting.
As the festival unfolds, we delve into culturally rich stories like "Echo" and "Fish War," highlighting the transformative power of film as a tool for preserving indigenous identity and heritage. We journey through the historical significance of the fish wars and celebrate initiatives that foster cooperation between state and tribal entities. The legacy of Billy Frank Jr. takes center stage, along with efforts to nurture indigenous identity in schools, ensuring that history and traditions are honored and shared for generations to come. Through these remarkable stories, we spotlight the filmmakers and cultural leaders who are passionately advocating for representation, equity, and collaboration in their communities.
All right, we are back here at the Grand Cinema and the Tacoma Film Festival. In our little residency perch here in the lower lounge, we are delighted to be joined by the filmmaking duo from Wild Dreams, kwabi Amoa-Foreson and Derek Nunn Fellas. Thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to us on the microphone today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having us. It's an honor to be here.
Speaker 3:It's always great coming back to ETI.
Speaker 1:So I need to know was this the Washington State premiere? I know that this had played somewhere else prior to this, but I can't remember what you told me. That was like a friends and family screening.
Speaker 3:So what kind of debut did we just experience? So this is the world premiere of wild dreams? Uh, the screening we had before was cast and crew. Um, we had just finished the mix and sound mix and all that and picture. It was picture locked and I think I scheduled a cast and crew screening very soon after. So that was all that took place. We had a little technically I guess there was a screening in Seattle for a much smaller arts thing, but I'm not counting that. The presentation wasn't great. It was their first time ever working with films. There was almost no one there, so I don't really count that and that was more of a test and they filmed and they screened the wrong one the wrong version.
Speaker 4:It wasn't the final version. I was like oh, gosh.
Speaker 3:So, by all intents and purposes, this was the world premiere and I gotta say it was a great crowd and a great audience.
Speaker 1:And well, that's what I received yeah, that's what I gotta ask about, then, right off the bat, derek, you're no stranger to this quabba. You as well are no stranger to seeing yourself on screen or being interviewed, being in a public space like that, being vulnerable on screen, or at least your presence. What was different about this, however? Being in a live theater, at a film festival, seeing yourself in a narrative feature, not so much documentary, ism, which is sort of what you're more known for is, you know, real life messages, right, right right.
Speaker 2:Well, blue Mouse is massive right, a lot of seats filled, and so to see that amount of people to watch a message, an uplifting message, something that everyone needs to hear, was massive right. And you know, I'm looking to my left, I'm looking to my right, seeing sort of the faces nearby how they're seeing the message being portrayed, and it resonated with a lot of people just right off the bat, which means there's the film, has volumes right and, as Derek has explained many times, it brings the conversation to the forefront so something else too that I think that the movie does really well and that I think we felt in the theater.
Speaker 1:I'm curious, derek, as you, as the filmmaker, did you feel this where there's a moment in which the film starts and you wonder is this going to be a satire of the work environment, is this going to be not necessarily a comedy, but how quote unquote entertaining is this supposed to be, as opposed to like message driven? And then, once the movie really gets going, you understand this is much deeper than you know. Just a young man getting a new job. So could you feel that kind of tide shift in the theater as people were watching it?
Speaker 3:yeah, it was definitely those moments to where, um, you can tell the audience wasn't sure whether to laugh at something. Obviously something, uh, I mean life can be funny, uh, and it's. You know, as people we tend to laugh at our own pain. Or especially when you get some distance from something, it's a little bit easier to laugh at it. And that first moment when you Kwabi's character, batwe, does this opening not so much monologue but somewhat of a monologue and the reveal is who he's talking to and it's a boardroom of older white people, and you get a bit of a chuckle because it is funny, the reveal is funny, it's like oh, this old black guy with a very strong distinct African name is being interviewed by three old white people.
Speaker 1:Who then, in turn, are very excited to bring him onto the team as a diversity hire Right. Exactly, and for some people that can be funny, because you and, in turn, are very excited to bring him onto the team as a diversity hire Right, exactly.
Speaker 3:And for some people that can be funny because you know life, there's a lot of levity in life. But for other people that's so real to where it's not as funny. So it kind of rides that line and the audience, I think, picked up on a lot of that, like they laughed in that moment, but as it went on it was like like oh, this is uh something that we, almost everyone goes through. I think everyone will. We all have a lineage, we're all from a lineage, so I think in that way, everyone can kind of relate to it. But yeah, it rides that line between, like drama and comedy and and I think we, I think we did, I think we did well did that stand out to you in the script when you first saw a draft?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we need to see violence in a new lens, right. So when we think of violence, we may think of someone like punching somebody, which it is, or we think of violence in the sense of you know, someone screaming at someone like this is very violent. But I think what wild dreams does in my mind, it kind of gets into the realm of something like a thriller, because the violence is seen as someone limiting someone, right, which is a form of violence, right? Lack of opportunity is a form of violence, right. So that's in my mind. It's kind of where the action lies.
Speaker 1:That's so true, I've seen the film a few times now, and you are absolutely right where there's almost this your character has been granted access behind certain doors previously locked to them and to their people, and so that is it's gatekeeping, and gatekeeping is violence right, that's incredible uh, derek, when you're writing this script are do you have kwabi in mind?
Speaker 7:because kwabi is a public figure here in the tacoma community? Was kwabi the first person that came to mind for the role? How did you guys find each other and get hooked up on this project?
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you everybody for listening to excuse the intermission. Yeah, no, so for the longest time, even now, I it's always been difficult for me to write small, and a lot of producers and like people who have done filmmaking or had any kind of level of success, they always say like, oh, write small, do something small, do a short film, just shoot with your friends. And that's always been very, very difficult for me because I just see I'm a big picture kind of person. I see the world in a big picture. So writing something small was difficult for me. But I was like how can I write something that's small but the ideas and the themes of it are much grander?
Speaker 3:So when writing it, kwabi was the only person that I can think of. I did write with him in mind. I didn't want to write him as the person that he is, because I did want him to act. I did want him to be someone that wasn't himself. But the lead character is Ghanaian American. Kwabi is Ghanaian American, but the journey that he's on him being such a public figure, I don't think a lot of people and I think this is true of most public figures we don't fully know their story until it's fully shared and fully contextualized and I knew it was a part of his story. Of course, I can't tell his story.
Speaker 1:But you can give him the opportunity Right, right, right, exactly.
Speaker 3:And I think that was in an early conversation because, like I said, this is a story that we all have. We all have a lineage, we all come from someone. We're all blazing a trail for someone else and through a path that we are walking as well, someone else and through a path that we are walking as well. But I am not as connected with my past and my heritage as I think someone like Kwabi could be, because he does. I don't want to speak for him, but he does a lot of humanitarian work and he actually went to Ghana and I think his father is still there and he was doing a lot of giving back Me.
Speaker 3:I don't know where my grandparents passed long before I was born, so I never got a chance to meet my grandparents on my father's side and I didn't meet my father until much later in life. So it was a little bit of a disconnect, even though I know I have this story and that was like some of our first conversations after we wrote the script and we were talking about it Is like exploring that connection with the past and with ancestry and all of those things. I think we're getting a little ahead, but yeah, um, yeah, that was some early conversations that we had.
Speaker 7:Yeah. So then, Kwabi, if this is I don't know if this is your first screen role uh, you know, acting in front of the camera as opposed to cause. We all know you do a lot of video outlet work here in the Tacoma area, but was there anything that kind of stood out being directed by Derek, Maybe like a great piece of directing that he gave you or a great improvised moment that came up on set?
Speaker 3:Now be very careful.
Speaker 2:So, derek, there was one tidbit that really resonated with me and the whole aspect of slowing down, right, enunciating words, feeling the scene and just staying with it and letting it, you know, flow naturally, versus trying to force anything, don't force anything. But he's always been big on this aspect of slowing down and I I listened to that. This is even before we started filming.
Speaker 1:He told me about this and so that's sort of what I took with this film being slow, being intentional, but also letting the scene sort of flow and not forcing anything I love that because the pace at which your character and all the characters in the film uh are experiencing the moment, I think, really helps this balance in your script derrick between so much being said on screen. However, it's not always written and it's up to your non-verbal acting, your physical acting, your facial expressions, your might. You talked in the q a about the micro expressions and aggressions at times too, and I think for I have to commend you because, as a first time actor and in a narrative short, you did an incredible job portraying that on screen.
Speaker 2:Thank you appreciate it greatly, man, it was fun. This was in my mind. This was the first project where I really I really want to do more of this right um, just with the direction of derek and learning how to become a better actor. I would say I've done acting here and there in the past, but this was the first like I took it very seriously and what I indulged in I enjoyed greatly. So I want to do more of it.
Speaker 1:I also have a question now too, in a little bit of a bigger picture. Since your film's screened in the Pacific Northwest Dramatic Shorts block, seeing your film screened in the pacific northwest dramatic shorts block, seeing your film wild dreams in harmony with the other submissions from that block, did it make either of you see something in your film for the first time that you didn't realize was previously there?
Speaker 2:that's a great question.
Speaker 3:That's a good question I'll say this, and very humbly speaking, because our block had a lot of really really good, incredibly strong, really really strong films. It was definitely the shortest of all of them. Some like were like twice as long, but I, I seen my film I don't go to gosh, I don't know how many dozens of times and dozens of different variations. As well, I enjoyed, I appreciated the brevity and that sounds weird because it's like I edited the film. I shot and edited the film. I know every frame of it, but I appreciate the brevity of it and the's how, the pacing and, uh, how how much you could follow I I hope that people could follow what was taking place because, uh, like I said, on stage, it goes by pretty quickly, at least for me, having seen it. I don't know how many times, but it goes by pretty quickly.
Speaker 3:But the fact that you can follow what's happening and you don't have to wait for a filmmaker Q and a to kind of get some insight, and it's like what was actually it about? What was this about? And it's like it seems like everyone got it, which that's what any filmmaker wants. It's like did you get it? Yeah, I got it. Uh, I mean, make a lot of this is out in field, out in theaters right now. Out, people are still trying to figure out what were you trying to say, man, like you know. So the fact that it can, I can the message, such a dense and and hearty message, can be conveyed within nine minutes, uh, uh, I appreciate that. I mean not to say that the other films that were a bit longer, uh, didn't get their message across. Uh, I appreciate the fact that it was being able to be conveyed, um, yes, as quickly and swiftly as it was to piggyback off that.
Speaker 7:What, what like piece of advice would you give to young filmmakers to get a message across in nine minutes?
Speaker 3:in such brevity, oh, man gosh, I don't know if I'm qualified to answer this question um you, you wrote, made this film, you are, you are definitely qualified that's.
Speaker 1:It's actually interesting, though not that you're like suffering from imposter syndrome right now, but that's another reading of the film, almost in a way, for sure yes, for sure, for sure, imposter syndrome is a big part of uh.
Speaker 3:Um, it plays a big part in the film. Um, I guess I would say if I were giving someone advice in keeping it short I want to, I don't want to, I don't want to. Okay, yeah, and getting your message across is you know? You hear filmmakers say tell the story. Uh, write what you know. That's what they say. Write what you know.
Speaker 3:In addition to writing with you know, I would say tell a story. That's true, that's true. Yeah, tell a story that's true, because I've seen films where the filmmakers are overextending themselves and telling a story that's not theirs or that's not true for them and it does not come across. You can tell it's just like I don't buy it, I don't believe it, it doesn't feel real. This might not even be your story to tell. I think we can tell it's just like I don't buy it, I don't believe it, I don't, it doesn't feel real, it. This might not even be your story to tell. I think we even talked about this. I don't want to name shout anybody, but like alex, alex, uh, garland has made a number of films where it's kind of like dude, I don't know this, I don't know if this was your story to tell.
Speaker 3:Um, uh, as talented as a filmmaker as he is, uh, we, we apologize, alex garland who course listens to every episode of ETI.
Speaker 1:Sorry, alex, don't email me, but you don't need to tell us how women experience trauma.
Speaker 3:That's very true, that's right, exactly so. I would just say tell a story, that's, and in doing so you'll know when it's too much or not enough.
Speaker 1:Well, and you always hear. If you tell the truth, you never have to remember what you said.
Speaker 1:And I think what you just explained was that I don't have to turn this into something and it gets out of control, because you know what you're saying the entire time, you know your direction as a character and it just comes across so well. One more question before I get you out of here, because there's so many other people I'm sure that you guys would love to shout out and thank or whatever. How did the sourcing go for some of the extras who play a pivotal role in this film, the music, which is incredible. Like, is there anything that you want to give a quick shout out to?
Speaker 3:Well, joanne is a powerhouse. She played, she acted in the film. She should have got a producer credit man Cause. So, like, time after time, she kept showing up. I mean we shot part of it at PLU, pacific Lutheran University, and they gave us free reign. They walked me through one of the buildings, just like from room to room. It was like, just pick a room, which is, if you know anything about location scouting, which is unheard of, you don't get your pick of just and for free, free of charge, it's just not something that happens. And I picked the biggest room, the largest room.
Speaker 3:I was like. I was like nervous to say it, but so we were able to film at the university. We had a number of extras that were scheduled to show day of flaked. So I'm like, okay, what, what are we gonna do with this part? It's a party like what are we gonna do with all the scenes? So she goes, uh and recruits, I don't know, maybe a dozen students and you're seeing all this.
Speaker 1:I'm just trying to put out fires.
Speaker 3:I'm running around, I'm trying to put out fires. I'm telling one of the? Uh we had like sat like pas, like legit pas. It's like dude didn't know how to run sound, so I'm like showing him how to run sound. I'm like blocking the scene. I'm trying to, I'm like doing way too much rather other than just directing. And then here she comes in with a dozen students. It's like here's your extras. I'm like, yeah, miracle, where's your, where's your cape? Because you know you're saving the day, like, and she kept doing that over and over and over again.
Speaker 3:Um, obviously, the sound, I mean the music, uh, emil sana, uh, awesome guy, he's based out of finland, so he's in europe. Like we're corresponding through whatsapp, uh, and like doing video calls and like talking about the sound and how we wanted to be like have this motif and this theme that keeps returning. And I think the music turned out just um, chef's kiss man, it just turned out so well. And for him to be doing that I don't know how many miles away it is, but you know 10,000 miles away Like he made it all happen and it's like it was almost like he was there in the room with me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's so many people I could shout out, but obviously Sterling and Mia at Cider and Cedar, really this was a Tacoma production. I mean it kind of all came together. So many people just came together. The sense of community, this thing that Tacoma has, that a lot of places don't have. I've worked a long time in Los Angeles and it's just, you know, you gotta pay money to get people even invested, get interested and just coming here and I mean it was with between script and I think the last day of shooting. It was probably a month and some change which is like super fast.
Speaker 3:Uh, like all the locations, the casting, like everything just kept happening so quickly. That's great, yeah, normally I wanted to crew up, I wanted to and I was like you know, let's just keep moving forward. Like normally, this takes a lot longer, but things were happening so fast.
Speaker 1:We just went with it and it turned out, and here we are. I love that part about Tacoma because obviously that's important to you, kwabi. We know it's important to you. We love seeing Tacoma come together on a project like this. So, fellas, derek Kwabi, thank you so much for bringing wild dreams to the Tacoma Film Festival and for taking the time out to chat with us on the mic today. Most definitely appreciate you. Thank, derek Nunn's shortest ETI appearance ever.
Speaker 7:Ladies, and gentlemen, All right listeners. We are now joined with Haley McCoy, the writer, director and producer of Echo. Haley, thanks so much for joining us on the show.
Speaker 8:Thank you for giving me a slot. I really appreciate it Absolutely.
Speaker 7:My first question is is where does this film come from?
Speaker 8:from within, like what is the first step to creating this world in echo and writing everything down on paper yeah, um, this is the first thing I've ever, like I've written scripts before, but this was the first one with the intent of, like, I want to make you know, um, and I knew, as like my first ever introduction of, oh, directing and writing and putting it all actually visually together, um, I needed to set guidelines.
Speaker 8:So, so, the two biggest things that helped motivate and shape Echo was the lights out short. It's literally only a minute long and it's just a setup, it's a premise, and then there's a payoff and it's perfect in the small sense that it was achievable and it still had impact. And so I wanted to create that same sort of feeling, that same sort of niche story that doesn't have to have all the answers, but enough to be satisfying and to get that payoff. The story side of it came from my love of a video game called Until Dawn, which is a phenomenal story-based horror game, and it actually has a creature in that game called a Wendigo and one of the things that they, their abilities, is to mimic voices.
Speaker 8:And I was like that is a very interesting subject. That one little niche thing and I can't do an entire creature feature. I can't do, I can't do all that makeup not yet not yet not yet, um. So I was like, let me focus on this one thing and see how terrifying I can make it that's.
Speaker 7:That's amazing. What, what terrifies you about? I about voice, right like an echo, like sound is very important in this film. Uh, and sound can be so, you're right, it can be so terrifying. Where does? Is that a fear that you hold? Is that something that just kind of you found that it just really worked for this story?
Speaker 8:it. Yeah, it's something that works so well and I think it's something that's so prevalent in the Northwest, where everyone goes hiking and you know that's like it's not really a hobby, it's just something you do because it's available to you, you know, and there's always stories and there's always like um, there's an entire trend on TikTok of people saying like if you hear a voice screaming, that doesn't mean you go off the path, that means there's someone out there to get you.
Speaker 8:You know a scream does not mean run and help. A scream means run away. And so there's a sense of reality to especially when it's something human. You know our instinct. If it's a bear, you know you run. If it sounds like an animal, you know that's something else. But a human is someone with intelligence or someone who needs, I don't know camaraderie is a huge thing.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And so.
Speaker 7:Well, I think, also being a human, it can make you question like oh, does that person need help?
Speaker 8:Yes.
Speaker 7:Right, and so that instinct to run might be lessened because it is a human, which is a great trick that the film pulls off.
Speaker 8:Thank you. Yes, that's what I wanted. It's a whole, that's literally the entire plot is how it actually is compelling, but also terrifying at the same time.
Speaker 7:Absolutely. Uh, you shot this all out in the woods, which is really really tough to do, shooting anything, I mean usually I don't know if you were at a park, or because it doesn't really look like a park, I mean it looks like you're out on a trail. How hard was finding the location? And then you know getting all the equipment out there and shooting, and I can't imagine. I mean I don't know if maybe this is a popular trail or if you like, you had a lot of interruptions. What was that experience like?
Speaker 8:It was movie magic. I got lucky in the fact that my parents have like and my grandparents had 60 acres, wow. And my grandpa was part of the forestry like club where they take care and they put trails and like take care of the creek that goes through there. That's amazing so that trail is actually a tractor trail that my grandpa had made.
Speaker 7:Oh well, the secret's out now. Filmmakers, we just come find Haley McCoy for all your outside shoots.
Speaker 8:I told people for so long I had it and then they sold it right after I filmed this.
Speaker 7:Oh well, at least you got a film out of it.
Speaker 8:I have to give so much thanks to my parents for letting me do that. Obviously, we didn't have a cliff on the property and I can't send an actor off a cliff. That is a big no, no, Um, so my dad helped me build a stage on the property and so the tree line where they go up the hill. That is all real. And then we just had the stage right on the other side um where that tree line is, and so they were just six feet in the air and that was our cliff.
Speaker 7:Fantastic, that's so good, that's amazing. You can't even tell in the film. So really well done there.
Speaker 8:He literally took the tractor and scraped off a piece of the hay field that's connected to the forest to have the authentic floor as our base, and we just tie down a bunch of rocks to the edge and we're like that's a cliff.
Speaker 7:This is going to work. That's how movies are made. Yes, that's amazing. You said this was your first directorial debut. What is something that you learned while shooting that you or any other process, I guess pre production or post uh that you wish you knew going in?
Speaker 8:yeah, um, I had such an amazing crew and they were so nice to me for this being my first one. They just had so much passion and love for this and wanted to see me succeed that they were just yes-anding everything and my actors were phenomenal. I barely gave them any direction. They both had stage backgrounds and so their seven-page script. We have it all in our heads. You want us to do a full run right now. I'm like.
Speaker 8:I didn't know you could do that. Oh my God, yes, please, and so, um, I think I learned. Definitely, though, to speak up, and even if things go smoothly, it is your vision, so you have a right to say not that, a little more of this, you know you have the right to nitpick it if you're going to put money to it you know, have the right to nitpick it if you're going to put money to it.
Speaker 7:You know that's a great piece of advice. What's next for Echo? Is this the beginning of its festival run? Have you been in festivals?
Speaker 8:Or where can we find it? Yeah, this is the second run and we're in the middle of Echo's little festival run right now. Awesome, we have like three more. I think this is the first're in the middle of echo a little festival run right now. Awesome, um, we have like three more, I think. Um, this is the first one in washington, this is the washington premiere, so very cool yes, um.
Speaker 8:So once this is done, um, by the end of this year, uh, echo will be available for all to watch. Um, it'll be on my personal website, um, which is my name hayleymccoycom. Amazing, I got that. I don't know how I got that or YouTube or something like that. I'll make it available very cool, very cool.
Speaker 7:Well again, thank you so much for bringing your work to Tacoma and for making films and for being on the podcast.
Speaker 8:Thank you, yeah, thank you, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:All right, it is now my privilege to be joined by the filmmaking team from Fish War. If the three of you could go around the table and introduce yourselves and your relationship to the film.
Speaker 5:My name is Ed Johnstone. I'm a Cornelop tribal member and chairman of the Northwest Indian Fish Commission.
Speaker 4:My name is Willie Frank III. My Indian name is Kulashgit. I'm an Esqually tribal member. I'm the son of Billy Frank Jr. Your name is Kolaschka. I'm an Esqually tribal member.
Speaker 6:I'm the son of Billy Frank Jr and my name is Charles Atkinson. I'm one of the co-directors on the film and a principal at North 40.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Thank you so much for bringing Fish War to the Tacoma Film Festival today. I wonder, of all the different times that you've seen this film and I'm sure the number's different for all of you what did this screening at the tacoma film festival mean to you personally?
Speaker 5:well, if I'm going to go, first it puts me in a place I'm real familiar with. As a young boy we used to come here and visit all over tacoma and Fife. My mother knew all the Indian people in this area and certain areas of Tacoma, like up over off of Portland Avenue, up towards the hill, through Fairbanks Hill and across behind their facilities. They have now that we visited everywhere and so it brings back those times that lead right into, basically, the fish-eans. You know that's what brought us here. You know quite often. So it's special to be in Indian country, one of the 20 member tribes of the Fish Commission, versus, for instance, we were in Vancouver, british Columbia, last week Makes it a whole different set of circumstances and different audience and good to see some of the First Nations that were there and some of the similarities, the struggles that they're continuing to go through up there.
Speaker 4:I think for me, growing up, my dad and I we used to drive around a lot. Now that I think about it, it was time for him to kind of process life and relax and kind of just show me that old traditional trade route, you know, and so I think about where we are today. You know, this is Puyallup. This is where our family, you know, half of our family, the McLeod family, a lot of them grew up out here, you know, and so for us, you know, and so for us, it was always making sure we stayed connected to our roots. And you know, for us, it runs, unfortunately, up the i-5 corridor. Now, you know that wasn't the original traditional kind of trade. But it's like, here we are today.
Speaker 4:I'm just grateful to be sitting in the theater and have an opportunity to watch this on a big screen.
Speaker 4:I mean, I've been watching this, like I said, a lot lately, but in the actual theater is just so, you know, remarkable. But to see our people up on the you know screen, to see Ed up there, you know, these are the people I grew up with. Like I said, I've been sitting in these meetings since before I probably knew it, you know. And so having the opportunity now to see our own people, kind of getting the opportunity to tell the story, not in a way that's threatening to anybody, you know, but it's a way to bring people together, you know. And seeing Ed up there tonight tell that story, you know, and it is connecting all of our 20 treaty tribes but also the 29 tribes in the state and also to show our state of Washington look, we're all here together, you know, but it's protecting, managing and being responsible partners and working together to protect this great state. So any chance I get, especially to watch this video, this film in the Medicine Creek Treaty Territory, is always special to me.
Speaker 6:Yeah, from the filmmaking side, it's awesome to be able to play the film where people can come out and see it and watch it on a big screen and feel whether they know people here are touched by this movie, they're connected to it in a big screen and feel whether they were, whether they know people here are touched by this movie, they're connected to it in a really personal way and that it is different than taking it up to vancouver and hearing the connections that people have, but the ones here are really strong. It's very cool to see and be able to have conversations before and after the film plays. As a filmmaker, I liken it to something I always say it's like watching signs in a cornfield. You know, watching a film about the bold decision here in the Puget Sound area along the west coast of Washington, it's like watching signs in a cornfield.
Speaker 1:You're in the place where it took place and that's pretty powerful having seen the film so many different times and experiencing it, almost reliving history while watching the film, are there certain moments throughout the last 50 years when you see him portrayed on screen? You know we talked about the peaks and valleys, it's just. It's such a story of tragedy, but also triumph. There's this, there's this balance. How do you feel like the balance is portrayed? And then, ultimately, how does it land with the audience that you've been able to watch it with? Do you feel like people are left in the right place after they leave the theater? I guess is what I would ask.
Speaker 5:Well, first of all, I'd say, as someone that lived through the struggles and continue to live the struggle in different ways, in different manners, the overlay of what climate is doing and the mass population growth and the degradation of our uplands and our creeks and valleys and waterways those that were on the journey or the children of the journey, or even the children's children, it gets really emotional. I think in Vancouver I said it was the first time that I didn't really cry. Well, I cried a little tonight, unless you were in that. Sometimes you just can't grasp the emotion that we were all surrounded with. When you look at Bud Moses and he talks about his dad wouldn't be coming home tonight. When you look at, when I look at the old footage when they're dragging Maisel and Norma up the right up the bank of the river and the dialogue that's going on you know you're poaching and the gravity of the demonstrations and, quite frankly, the approach that Hank Adams and Billy Frank and the leaders that were working together to bring this to light. It was at the advice of Martin Luther King Jr to be civil, civil disobedience, non-confrontational, and there was a few exceptions where I think some of the young men were compelled to swing back, but they were outnumbered five, 6, 7, 8, 10 to 1.
Speaker 5:It's that kind of emotion that is embedded in the struggle.
Speaker 5:Ramona Bennett just rocks in this and I don't know if the audience realizes that when they see her as living that life and her testimony in this film, when they flash her on the TV or on the screen, there's, I think, only one caption under there that says Ramona Bennett as a young lady, indian lady, indian warrior and tribal leader, when she reflects on how she felt real time was it was us versus the pigs.
Speaker 5:Real time was it was us versus the pigs and that was fostered by the nature and approach that they employed on us. You would have thought at some reasonable point in time there would have been a forum to have a discussion, to stop this kind of activity and to recognize our rights. But that was not in the cards and it wouldn't be admitted to by any state official, let alone the state attorney's general's office. And they still, to this day, harbor that position out of the state attorney's general's office. When it comes to their client over there in the fisheries, they do not and never will admit that they lost. That's a fact. It surfaces very often in our relationships, in trying to work out issues in different areas at different times, it still surfaces just remember we got to hold them accountable with the statue.
Speaker 7:Now all right, that's what we're here to do it's hard to be ignorant of that right it is because we're reaching, we're almost having to retell the right history.
Speaker 4:You know, and it's almost um. You know, un, uh, un-messing up your brain of what we've learned in 150 years, because you know, and it's almost, you know I'm messing up your brain of what we've learned in 150 years, because you know we're not going anywhere, as you could hear Ed's right. You know, you hear the passionate Ed's voice. You know he has two grandkids now. He's looking out for the next seven generations and they're Cornell grandkids and they both go to water.
Speaker 4:One doesn't go to Wahoo yet, but then she will and get old enough she goes in this quality early head start, and so it's it's, you know, I think about where we are and what ed's talking about.
Speaker 4:You know, it's it's this community that we need to bring the values back to and that's the state of washington, you know, and it's the respect one of our sovereign nations and what a sovereign nation is. And that's what the whole, you know, know, beautiful story of Fish War is about is about a sovereign one community and then 20 treaty tribes but then 29 federally recognized tribes. Now, you know, and you could even talk about the executive order tribes if you want, but that's a whole, nother discussion Because you think about just how everything weaves together. Now you look at Ed and I. I think this is such a special night because Ed and I never had a chance just the two of us to get up and talk together. You know, like I said, growing up, for me watching Ed and other you know folks on this video, I mean I used to go to DC before I was on tribal council because I see what my dad was trying to show Pegan and I both was about one the work that was needed of just being patient.
Speaker 4:You know, I think about how many times this guy went to DC, all the times but I think about. As a kid I remembered the hotel that my dad and these guys stayed at. I knew the phone number to it because that's how many times he was going back to DC all the time, you know. And so for me it was like I mean, my wife knows, she knows I'm a dork. When I go to DC, right, I hit the history, I hit the museums, the monuments, because that's, you know, for me, having the chance to go back and tell our story now, in a place that they, they didn't welcome us. They looked at us as savages, you know, you look around the walls in the Capitol and that's what they still deplete us as. But now we're going to have Chief Stanny Bear on one side and we're going to have Billy Frank Jr.
Speaker 4:You know this treaty warrior, this little Indian man who was about five foot seven, you know who's just had the most patience in the world. But you did not want to piss that guy off, you know, and you saw what happened when you did. He was getting thrown in jail left and right because they were trying to take away something that was promised to us in 1854, you know, and Guy McMind, joe Delacruz these are all people I worshiped growing up and having all the ladies. You're seeing the women rise now for Indian country, you're bringing that balance back. You talk about balance in this world and for us as Indians, grandpa Willie might have been the one who bought the land back in 1918, but Grandma Angeline was the boss, she know. She was the one who let it be known, you know, because that was the respect we had for our women, you know.
Speaker 4:And growing up, my mother, who passed away in 2001,. She was my boss, like I, was a mother's boy, you know, mama's boy, and it was that respect though you know, it wasn't in that way that we're kind of seeing the world living where everybody's in emotions and feelings a little bit. You know, it was that preparing us for what's ahead and it's preparing for we even myself, you know, with all the generations. There's a quick story there used to be an elder that used to say there's supposed to be a Willie Frank every 50 years, you know, and for me, my dad was 50 when he had me. My grandpa was 50 when he had my dad, you know, was 50 when he had me. My grandpa was 50 when he had my dad.
Speaker 5:You know, I always we're not having a kid because of what we're seeing right now in this crazy world. You know, but you're not quite 50.
Speaker 4:well, you know. But you know, we got along. I still got eight years, you know.
Speaker 1:But it's keeping track of you. You better watch out.
Speaker 4:There's a whole side story to this conversation, but it's like trying to get our tribes one in a whole generation. Who's ready to just be proud, to be Indian, proud of where they come from, proud of, you know, exercising the songs, the dances, the canoe journey. You know, I'm a fisherman. I've been a fisherman in the same fishing area where my grandfather fished, where my dad fished, where my brother taught me how to fish. See my dad, he didn't fish when I was growing up because he was in a different time of you know, working. See my dad, he didn't fish when I was growing up because he was in a different time of you know working and trying to bring partnerships and co-management. So I'm very, very fortunate to have my brother fish, teach me how to fish and if anybody ever knew him, he was not a patient man at all and I couldn't imagine him teaching a lefty how to one hang net, how to set net, because it's, you know it's backwards, but it was like you know.
Speaker 4:Now he's 63 years old, you know, and he doesn't run the river. He doesn't drive the river anymore, you know, I run the river because you know his teachings of just watching him be patient. You know he wasn't crazy. He made sure I was safe because, you know, that was what we do we take care of our kids, you know, and so I think it's just such a unique time for me. It's been very, you know, painful to watch some of the uh kind of conversation that goes on amongst one our tribes, but also the lack of respect that we're still seeing with our federal and state agencies at times. But I always look at everything as a teachable moment and I look at this fish war documentary, this film. This is just the beginning of the next 50 years well.
Speaker 1:I think it's so encouraging to hear both of you and I'm sure it's one of the driving purposes behind wanting to make the film. It now lives as this piece of history that can be taught. It can be used as a piece of an education. I mean I when I'm not podcasting and getting to meet amazing people like you I'm a social worker at an elementary school and every single year we have a fourth grade class. They raise salmon, they take them to a hatchery, they release them. So when you think about conservation, you think about projecting towards the future what this documentary might mean. Going forward, what do you think is some of the most important? What's the most important aspect of trying to take the good energy that you get from something like this and project it forward and so that generations can continue to learn, practice these traditions and keep the culture alive?
Speaker 5:I think for me if we would think a little more comprehensively about how to roll this film out and think about kind of the very desire to our desired outcome. What do we want out of this film? First of all, we wanted to tell the story of what the fish wars really were, what they represented and how it advanced us forward in the recognition of that historic court case rendered in, you know, february 12, 1974, later upheld by the United States Supreme Court in 79, is to think about how those that are viewing this film can advocate for our rights and really what it's saying is it's the rights of every Washington citizen is really the underpinning of what the story is really telling. That, in common with means that we are wrapped around that court decision and the real desire was for that to lead to a spirit of cooperation. That didn't happen until Bill Wilkerson became the director of the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife in 1981-82. Life in 1981-82.
Speaker 5:And as the WDF&W biologist stated, who was a tribal biologist at the time, that you know Wilk had to tell him you know, I don't want to hear that anymore. I was in the room the first day that he said that, in a mixed room of state and tribal and he said I don't want to hear that anymore, we're not, that's not the way we're going to do business anymore. And he actually really did point to the door. If you're not with us, there's the door. That's reflected in this film. And he changed the dynamic and for his directorship and then the following two things were pretty well on track, but then you, then there's another director, then another director, and then we get removed. We, we get removed, we get removed. Institutional knowledge and historic knowledge are not retained and we're back fighting again. It's exactly where we're at, no matter what they say on that film. It's very confrontational now and conservation has left the room from our side, but from the other side they're being, I guess, being led by quote-unquote user groups and it's very disruptive to that co-management relationship.
Speaker 5:But what you know to be more thoughtful of how we do this. I would love to have seen this connect through our websites, even though they flash on the screen Northwest Treaty Tribes, northwest Indian Fish Commission, salmon Defense. And the story is we're going to continue to educate and we're going to do it in a manner that Billy always said, and that's tell your story, but tell the truth. And when you do that, you can stand up, for you know the things that you do, what did you do and why did you do it and when you stick to that kind of thought process we did it because we have the background of the Bolt decision and the sovereignty and co-management right and that is validated by the supreme law of the land, the treaty, the treaty right, and it's been upheld. It's been challenged, it's been upheld. I think we've been to the United States Supreme Court something like nine times, and Cornell has been to the Supreme Court 12 times and we're 12-0. And that's a strong message. So get over it, work together.
Speaker 1:Well, it's the quote that the film ends with right About common ground.
Speaker 4:I agree, Ed. Do you want to add anything?
Speaker 6:Well, what I would would say maybe to your question from a non-tribal perspective. Until I started working with Willie and Ed and the Fish Commission 10 years ago, this wasn't something that I was taught in schools, and I grew up in the state of Washington. You learn about MLK and the civil rights movement in the south and this is, to me, something that should be in schools in the state of Washington and I think there's opportunity for that, but it's a big rock to turn over and I think it needs to happen well and I think you know some of the work right now, one with the Wahilu Indian School.
Speaker 4:But the work with it, you know. For me, growing up in the public school system, like you, I went to North Thurston. I graduated in the year 2000,. You know, and I had two amazing parents, you know, and I grew up around folks. You know some of our Indian. You know policy and lawmakers, you know, who wrote our laws, not realizing these great people my parents were surrounding me with, you know, and I think about that today.
Speaker 4:I always ask my mom and dad how come we're not learning about the Bolt decision at North Thurston or these public schools, because we're literally not even 10 miles from you know. And so for me it was, you know, I guess, being patient, you know, but going through trials and tribulations in my own life, you know, and it's almost like being patient enough for the right moments in time, you know, and I got asked to go back into speak at North Thurston in 2000, I think it was 16, peg and I, to the third graders at one of the elementary schools for Billy Frank Jr Day, and man, peg and I are looking at each other like we didn't even know what to talk about. We're like man, like, can we show some videos for about 20 minutes or something, you know, and so, you know, and now I look at both of us like shoot, you'd probably have to, you know, just pull the mic plug on us, because there's just so much excitement and so much opportunity right now. But for me, you know, in 2018, I started working with the school district at North Thurston and, you know, getting back into the schools was very important. So we were going six periods a day.
Speaker 4:Hanford McLeod myself, bill Kalapa and others, you know, committed the time to go back into the schools, whether it was kinder or whether it was a K through six or, you know, middle school or into the high schools, because we were starting to hear that our kids were not, you know, identifying as being Indian when they fill out the forms. And we're like what the heck is going on.
Speaker 1:I see it all the time it's. It's really sad.
Speaker 4:And so I'm like, wait. So you know, these are people that actually now are teachers that I went to high school with, so they're really, you know, reaching out me as a council member. And so what we started to do is work on a government to government relationship with the school district, and we were able to work on getting all of our 22 flags hung up in the school. And so now you pull into the North Thurston School District, there's an Esqually flag hanging at every school in the district and to hear some of our youth talk about, you know, it's that identity. It's talking about being seen, you know, seeing your own people, seeing your uncles, you know. Seeing your relatives, you know. But seeing your flag right next to the US flag when you walk into the school, I mean that's powerful for these young kids.
Speaker 4:I remember one of the young kids told Hanford his daughter she goes. Dad, it was the first day of school and man I, she goes. I almost started crying. She was probably six, seven years old at the time. She goes into school. I saw them in the squally flag hanging at the school. She goes, that's our flag. And man Hanford is like one of the toughest guys. He was in tears telling me this and I'm like we're both crying, sitting there together, like, but it was like that's that, that's pride, that's pride and and that's what we're. You know, we're working on healing our own pride right now, our generation, ed's generation, because it's, you know, it's taken a hit. But then I think about my dad and I think about that statue, what it's going to represent and symbolize, not just for our 29 tribes or the 20 treaty tribes, you know, for this state. Now know, these guys are going to have a chance to help us tell another story, I hope with the Billy Frank Jr statue. You know, and I think about what the job the Children of the Setting Sun are doing right now with their videos, you know, on the Billy Frank Jr statue project, and I strongly recommend you watch those on YouTube.
Speaker 4:You know it's very important to really kind of start educating the whole state about this one man who wouldn't want this recognition. He always said it never brought him a cup of coffee, but what he would want would be Ed and I, and you know the film crew North 40. You know everybody trying to uplift our people to tell the story, because it's our story, our tribes, here in the state. Ed's right. You know our history has been changed way too many times times, but now we have to all come back together as our tribes, because the foundation started on our river and now, you know, it's finishing on the river still. But we still have another whole fight with educating, social services, housing. You know you have all these things after the bolt decision from the centennial accord that now all come into play, you know, and so we have a great opportunity to educate people. We just got to find all of our leaders and our warriors out there ready to tell the story.
Speaker 1:Well, it's so much to think about, it's so much to to be proud of, and I thank you guys so much for taking the time out to share a little bit more about it here on the podcast with us. Thank you so much for coming out to the Tacoma Film Festival.
Speaker 6:Yeah, thanks for having us, absolutely.
