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LIVE Filmmaker Interviews from the Tacoma Film Festival PART 2
Imagine capturing the essence of homesickness and nostalgia through the lens of a filmmaker in their own hometown. That's exactly what Brianna Murphy set out to do in Gig Harbor, Washington, alongside her creative partner Julian Doan. We unravel the layers of their filmmaking journey, from using Brianna's parents' home as a set to discovering the mesmerizing summer light of the Pacific Northwest. Their film, featured at the Tacoma Film Fest, is a testament to the personal and emotive storytelling that resonates deeply, not only with them but with everyone who's ever felt the pull of their roots.
Next, we explore the behind-the-scenes magic of production, where creativity flowed as naturally as the script itself. From the infusion of real plants by production designer Sophia Odegaard to the dual talents of lead actress Jules, also known as Isla Vidal, every element of the film speaks to authenticity and passion. The process wasn't without its challenges, but the team's dedication shone through, especially in the moments where their vision was brought to life on screen. It's fascinating to see how a creative collaboration, born out of chance encounters, can culminate in a film score that perfectly complements the narrative.
We then hop over to the world of documentary filmmaking, where John McDonald takes us on a profound journey with "Call Me Mule." His film's global impact highlights the universal appeal of unique lifestyles and stories. Through John's eyes, we learn about the art of building rapport with both human subjects and their companions, the mules. His innovative blending of vintage and modern technology breathes new life into the narrative, illustrating the ever-evolving techniques in the documentary realm. This episode paints a vivid picture of storytelling's diverse forms, from personal tales in the Pacific Northwest to global documentaries that capture the heart and soul of their subjects.
hey, listeners. Uh, we are now joined with brianna murphy and julian doan. Uh, for I think I'd like to stay hi, hi thank you so much for being here and taking some time out of the busy day to join us on the pod.
Speaker 3:Uh well, we caught him early, we did. We got cereal and fruit buffet down here in the lounge, so this is good timing.
Speaker 4:Thanks for having us. Yeah, it's a pleasure.
Speaker 5:We're corn popped up.
Speaker 1:Uh, your guys' film a wonderful film, uh that we actually saw at gig Harbor film fest, and now this film a wonderful film that we actually saw at gig harper film fest, and now here we are again at tacoma film fest. Uh, I wanted to ask how important uh was the location of this film, because, rihanna, you grew up in gig harper, uh, and you but you live in la, you reside in la now, and uh and you have for a while and, but you chose to come up here and shoot this movie in your hometown out on the key pen, correct?
Speaker 4:Not technically not. I mean it's in Gig Harbor, it's not quite Key Peninsula, but Henderson Bay yeah.
Speaker 1:Fantastic yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean, the movie is about being homesick and it's very personally about me being homesick, so it kind of about me being homesick.
Speaker 4:So it kind of for me kind of had to be here. All the imagery was the Northwest and you know, we shot in my parents' home. There was a moment where we were considering shooting in other places. I think I was really reluctant to ask my parents to shoot in their home, because I work in film and I've seen what happens to homes when you shoot in them. But they were very generous and we shot in their home and then we actually had to find another location for the interior bathroom, because all of the bathrooms in my parents' home don't actually look like they're in that home. But yeah, no, the location was really important, because this is what it's about. It's about being homesick for the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 3:So, julian, how did the film get brought to you as a producer? What was the pitch, I guess?
Speaker 5:Oh, what was the? I mean, I was like it was brought to me because it's my girlfriend and we will produce this together.
Speaker 5:What was the pitch? So Brianna wrote I forget how many shorts you had written, but over the pandemic you wrote maybe like five or six shorts, kind of all. I feel like dealing with Washington and nostalgia and kind of like those themes and so like we kind of were like talking a lot about. I think there was just like all these scripts that sort of felt like anthology, but we didn't know, you know, and thinking about what film she wanted to direct first, it was kind of like this film sort of felt like if you can only make one, this feels like it encapsulates the, the, the general themes of like all the stuff you want to make and your interests, so like, and also like this feels the most achievable, like this feels like kind of small, kind of you know it feels like something we can do and then, as we started to produce, it was like, oh my god, this is actually like a little bigger than we thought
Speaker 5:maybe a little bigger, a little less achievable, but we did it, you know no, but, but compared to the other ones, I think it was, um, I don't know, it was just like kind of creatively exciting, to to to take on. You know, it had like is both like had some realism but like also some like kind of magical flourish, um, so I don't know, I feel like visually we're like, if you know, if if one day we wanted to get the other films off the ground, this feels like a good, like entry point and then, if we never get to make the other films, this feels like a great film, to be like the only film you ever made, which sometimes I feel that way about making films. I'm like, but treat it as if it's like the only one I'll ever get to make.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's a great attitude to bring into a production. So then did you sort of have the pacific northwest awakening after filming it, because I don't know how familiar you are with the woods and the water and the the natural beauty of the pacific northwest. But yeah, either during shooting or the more times that you watch it now in screenings like this yeah do you feel that, that magic?
Speaker 5:I for sure. Yeah, um it's. I mean, the films, like themes, are sort of based in like um, I guess, dissonance, you know, between us and like I'm from LA, you know, so I'm not from up here. I mean I'm an outdoorsy person, like I love going to like the woods in the Sierras back in California, but it's different. There's definitely something different up here and I would say the great thing about making this film was we got to make it over summer and up till then I hadn't been, I don't think I'd been to Washington in the summer yet I don't think you had.
Speaker 1:Well, I wanted to ask about that.
Speaker 3:it's only two weeks in August, but there's also that great line in the film where I believe the piece of dialogue is like and it stays light until 10pm and there's almost a little bit of like okay, you don't have to sell me on it that hard but it's true right those are conversations I feel like we've had.
Speaker 4:I mean like every time he's come up here, we'll be like driving around and I'll be like look at the light.
Speaker 5:And he's like it's like three 30. She's like it's at three 30 light.
Speaker 4:I'm like yeah, and he's like it's beautiful, like it is beautiful, and I'm like, but don't you see it?
Speaker 5:You know, at 3 30 yes I see it, yeah, I mean, I think it is a little bit of like a making, it is a little bit of a journey to try to see something through someone else's eyes, and that's that's very valuable. But like you know, we got to come here for the the summer. It was so hot but like you know, we brought like half of our crew from la and then we also had, like we hired a lot of local crew that we it's like it was our first time working with them and we kind of did do this like summer camp thing where it's like our crew was literally like sleeping at brianna's parents house and then our her neighbors were like housing some of our crew like down the street and it was just, like you know, over the, I think, two or three weekends, two weekends two weekends, yeah, we just all hung out and like even if we were making a movie, it was kind of like a beautiful time, like jumping into the yeah, we like went swimming and it's
Speaker 4:great walked in the woods and that time of year.
Speaker 3:It is very hard to capture. It's kind of the natural beauty, though you think and now maybe you can speak to this as as a first-time director of a short film and a filmmaker just in general but as you're walking around, no matter where you live, and you see natural light coming in, and there's a lot of kind of like that golden hour, there's sunset shots or some silhouette moments and stuff like that. How difficult is that to actually capture and portray what the naked eye is seeing on screen?
Speaker 4:Ooh, that's a really good question. I mean, I think I think Rania, our DP, nailed it Like um, like they really came in and and um were able to capture a lot of what I think I feel like I see when I'm at home. Um, I remember on one of our location scouts we were out in the woods and it was, I think yeah, I think it was like three or four, it was probably later in the day like five or six, so it was like sun is kind of starting to go down, but it was summer, but we were in the woods and so there was this like shaft of light coming through, and then in the light were like tiny little bugs that were kind of circling around, but they just light up and sparkle. I mean they look like fairies.
Speaker 4:You, know, and I remember Julian was like like whoa that looks so cool and I was like, yeah, like that's what I'm trying to get yeah, I notice it now too.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I pick up there's, yeah it's um as to capturing it.
Speaker 4:I mean, we we scheduled we had we did have to schedule a lot of our shoot around light and when light would be in certain places, and how we wanted to capture that light, um, so I think that was just kind of like, yeah, we thought about it a lot while we were scheduling, um, when we would be in certain locations, cause we used a lot of natural light, um, the only stuff that's really artificially lit is the stuff that's indoors and I guess the sort of outdoor bathtub was at night, so that was artificially lit, and then maybe the pond, but that was more like light shaping as opposed to actual lights in there. So it was really just about timing those moments. And then I'm not a camera person and Rania was so good about just like, yeah, knowing how to capture it whether that's what settings her camera's on or the lenses and all that stuff.
Speaker 4:Yeah, they did an incredible job.
Speaker 5:Yeah, there was also a lot of attention to. You know, Addictum was like uh, you wanted the film to like look natural to how yeah you know we didn't want to push the saturation and the color too hard, you know once we got to the final. It was like trying to. I just feel like having a good sense memory, for what does the place actually look like? Yeah, and trying to capture that color, too, in a realistic way. Colorist too, too.
Speaker 4:Zach are a colorist too, Like I think we really worked to like find the middle ground of it looking like just capturing the natural magic of the place. I didn't want it to go to like Guillermo del Toro, Like a lot of my references were like Kelly Reichardt and David Lowery's movies, which are very, I feel, I think feel very natural, even though they have this effervescence sometimes, especially like First Cow, you know that was like a big reference for this, because I think it just captures so well like what the light in the forest in the Pacific Northwest looks like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to know more about these five, five or six other scripts you've written. How, when, when did you decide to be such a prolific writer? And how does one sit down and just decide, like, I'm going to write a bunch of movies?
Speaker 4:I don't think I decided. I mean it happened during the pandemic. I've never really written screenplays before. I've worked in the film industry for gosh now like 15 years and but we were up here during the pandemic and there was nothing to do and I like I mean I had a really big reckoning about the fact that I had no idea what to do with free time and um, but they sort of just kind of fell out of me.
Speaker 4:I would say like and and weirdly, I think that this script actually was probably the last of all of them to be written and was actually finished a couple of years, like 2021. But yeah, they just all kind of tumbled out of me and I think a lot of them haven't changed that much, which has been really interesting, and I think in talking to people that do write, they express feeling very jealous about that. But I also don't think that I'm the person that can sit down and like work for a long time on developing, like that looks so hard or like just come up with a story yeah, writing is rewriting, yeah yeah, yeah, um, so I, I yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4:I mean, I don't, they've changed a little bit and there's been things that people have, you know, added over time, but the you know what the final film is is pretty darn close to like kind of the original script that I wrote. Um, so I don't know it. Yeah, how does one do it? I don't know. I think I was just inspired and and so I just did it out of like a necessity to get it out of my brain. And you know, like Julian said, I don't know if we'll make the other ones, but, um, I'm glad we made this one.
Speaker 3:So well, we're very glad you made this too, because there's one of the coolest pieces of practical set dressing that I've seen in a long time in this film. So we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about the bathtub and the transformation of that. Give me just like a quick balance and then you can extrapolate however you want, but between like challenging and fun to create that environment.
Speaker 4:Oh gosh, um, um. I think that's a better question for our production designer, sophia Odegaard, because she had to do it and I wasn't around. Really, she was dressing that set while we were shooting the first day. I think it was definitely challenging. I remember getting a text from her at 3 pm the day before we shot there.
Speaker 5:Which was our first day of shooting.
Speaker 4:We were in the middle of our first day of shooting and we got a text from her at 3 pm. It was one of those texts where you're like I don't know what we're going to show up to tomorrow.
Speaker 4:And I was like I'm just going to trust it's going to be okay. We just have to move forward, It'll be fine. But I'd like to think that Sophia had fun doing it. I think she did. I mean, it was a lot of work and she did a lot of research. She's not from the Northwest but she did a lot of native plant research and collaborated with a lot of the local nurseries, especially Woodbrook and Gook Harbor, which specializes in native plants, and so I was very committed to it always looking real.
Speaker 4:I didn't want it to look like ferns that we bought from michael's because I think you can always tell especially on a big screen and and so almost everything that you see in those is real plants and, um, she just, yeah, like she and she went around in the forest and like gathered moss from the forest, like, and went to and and bless her, like so much of this was us like wanting to preserve the natural beauty, like she like did all this research and like replant how to replant moss after you've like harvested it, and I was just like it was just it was the spirit of the film and and it was respectful of the place that we were in.
Speaker 4:So I'd like to think that it was fun for her. I think it was stressful because it's a lot, but I think it was fun for her and it was definitely like having. I mean, I remember when we set up camera because we worked backwards, we dressed the bathroom fully and then cleaned it up as the day went, and I remember the first time we saw a monitor. Oh, I'm gonna get like emotional talking about it, right now, but I like I cried I.
Speaker 4:It was like you see something that you wrote that was like in your head, and then it's even better than what was in your head and you're just like, oh, there's nothing like that. I think that and I think that's the high of filmmaking you know, I think as a director, you can probably speak to this, julian can speak to this when you see that shot and you're like, oh my God, this is it. It's so cool yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I looked over at her on that day and I saw her look at the monitor. I was like, oh, if for nothing else, it's for like this, it's for that look. You know, that's what this is all for, and also like shout out to Sophia did such an incredible job, and also our other art team.
Speaker 4:Oh yes.
Speaker 5:Jay Francis and Courtney. Courtney Riles is from up here. Where's she from?
Speaker 4:Well, she lives in Tacoma now is from up here.
Speaker 5:Where's she from? Uh, well, she lives in tacoma. Now, okay, yeah, but like it was like on set, they were, like you know, jules, the actress, was in the tub. They were running outside to the backyard like getting the duck weed and like putting it in the bath, and jules is in there and it's like this. All has to happen very fast too, because it's very cold. It was like a whole it was a whole thing.
Speaker 5:You know we had to bring her hot water bottle, uh things, and it was kind of like, yeah, it actually was like a whole thing we had to bring her hot water bottle things. It actually was a little crazier than it looks.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it looks very serene, but it was a pretty frantic set.
Speaker 1:It was a lot.
Speaker 4:It was a lot. Yeah, thank you for mentioning that.
Speaker 1:Tell us a little bit about the lead actress, Jules, because there's kind of an interesting story. I remember you telling me about how you found her and how you two hooked up for this project.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I should actually probably be referring to her by her artist name, which is Isla Vidal. So she's a musician. And a couple years ago I mostly have worked in costumes and a couple years it was probably like five years ago now she had reached out to me on Instagram. Like five years ago now she, uh, had reached out to me on Instagram. I we didn't know each other, but she'd seen a music video I designed and she was like I'm doing this music video, uh, would you want to design it? And at the time I was busy and I was like I'm so sorry I can't, but she had sent me the song and like if you've worked on music videos very rarely, do you actually liked the song and so I was like I'm gonna follow this person.
Speaker 4:We followed each other on Instagram like, never really communicated, and then she posted this.
Speaker 4:It was like a year later she posted this video of herself, which turned out to be on Orcas Island, singing into what I think is a like an abandoned water tank but, it's got this beautiful natural reverberation in there you can hear they did it with the recording and like you can hear like water dropping and like that echoing, and this tank was like dripping in moss. And I was like this is what I want my film to sound like. And so I reached out to her and I was like hey, I don't know if you've ever thought about, you know, composing for film or anything like that, but, but, um, I I've been writing this movie and I think we're going to try and make it this summer. And like, would you be interested in composing for it? And she was like sure, and I was like I'll send you the script, you can tell me what you think. She was like yeah, I'll read it, whatever.
Speaker 4:Um, and I sent her the script and about two weeks later I got an email back from her. It was like one of the most beautiful emails I've ever received in my life and I had no idea she's actually from here as well. We didn't know this about each other. She grew up here and had moved to LA, kind of like a little bit not as long as I'd been there, but had been there long enough and she was like I don't know how like I feel like, like you know me, and it was very much like this like kindred spirits thing, like we met and it was just like, oh, you get what I'm, you get this, you get this at like such a deep level.
Speaker 4:Um, and so, um, I, we, we chatted and I was like, have you ever thought about acting? And um, she, she had done some, she'd done a little bit of acting in the past and was like I would consider it and yeah, the rest is history. And I mean, for a variety of reasons, she didn't end up doing the full score, but her voice is all of the vocals in the score in the film as well. So, like, her music is like very much infused into that. Um, and our, our composer, uh, william Ryan French, did an incredible job of like working with her and our sound designer, ricky Burger, to like all three of them like made this very gorgeous soundscape for the film. So, yeah, that's, that's how we got hooked up. It was like very much Kismet.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was very special.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, we'll get you out of here on this one. This is a question that I've been waiting to ask you, and maybe the both of you. Now that, julian, you have a little bit of experience up here, give me a perfect summer day in the Pacific Northwest, or it doesn't even have to be. It doesn't even have to be a summer day. It could be a fall day, because there's so many different ways to like get out and experience the season. So what does that look like? Is that being in being in nature as in, like the woods, being on the water? What is it?
Speaker 4:oh gosh, I have to pick. I have to pick one.
Speaker 3:You don't have, no, no no, build, you build the out. What are you doing in the morning? What are you doing at lunch? Where are you at sunset?
Speaker 4:Can I pick the season?
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah, let's hear it.
Speaker 4:Okay, oh gosh.
Speaker 5:I mean, I can go first if it's.
Speaker 4:Yeah, go first.
Speaker 5:I grew to love just one thing I grew to love getting out on the paddle boards, out on the sound. That's I like we were yeah, it was, maybe it wasn't that summer, but I was always like let's borrow your friends paddle boards.
Speaker 3:Like every day, I just wanted to get out like her parents house leads down to the sound right behind it and I just love getting out there on the water the water's so still back there too, off of dead man's island cuts island, of course, of course.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's beautiful, so I love that. I don't know what the rest of the day looks like, but if I could do that, I'm like chilling.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, if we're going to do all the seasons, I feel like I wake up in winter on like the best powder day ever up at White Pass and there's no. It's like a Monday. There's no lift lines, there's just been a storm but it's cleared off and I get to snowboard and watch the sunrise up there Because the sunrise and the cascades.
Speaker 4:It's so gorgeous. And then I guess I mean I love I don't know, all the seasons here are so special. I mean I think there is something so magical about like late afternoon swimming in the summer, where it's like hot and the water's kind of warmed up a little bit. And then, you know, it's like I mean my best friend Lauren, it's like jumping off her dock into the water in the late afternoon and just kind of like getting cozy or whatever on the dock at the end of the day. And then I don't know, maybe I'll say like a fire at night in the fall. Like I don't know, I weirdly woke up.
Speaker 4:This is a longer story, but I woke up at like five o'clock this morning and started a fire in my backyard for a whole other reason, but like I, don't know, it was just like very special, like it's so cold and you can see your breath and like you know it's kind of spooky and it feels like they're you're, you know there, feels like there's like something just beyond where you are and um yeah, I don't know, I think.
Speaker 3:I think that's my that's a pretty damn good day, you just that's solid there's definitely blackberry pie involved too.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I think your next film, uh, should definitely be in the cascades about snowboarding.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think that's next I, I, I like this is it's like a complete 180, but I I was like someone needs to make a mockumentary about like working at a mountain and being a lifty or something.
Speaker 6:Cause.
Speaker 4:I did that. I worked at Mount Hood for two years when I was like young and um, it's the just the best characters. It's just the best character.
Speaker 3:It can still be ethereal and all these other things. It's just the eth character. It can still be ethereal and all these other things it's just the ethereal snowboarding documentary yeah, yeah I don't know they're all on mushrooms, that's, that's the ethereal yeah exactly um right on.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you both so much for again for sitting down and then talking to us, and uh hope to see you around all weekend.
Speaker 4:Thanks for chatting with us, take care.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to our coverage of the Tacoma Film Festival. Here at the Grand Cinema, we are delighted to be joined by John McDonald, the documentarian filmmaker of Call Me Mule. John, thank you so much for taking time out to chat with us today. My pleasure, it's great to be here. Thank you. You have been a busy man this last week all over the place. Where has this film taken you?
Speaker 2:Well, it started at the Thessaloniki Film Festival in Greece, and that was a year ago, march, and then it's continued to, I think, in about eight different countries throughout the world South America to the Eco Film Festival, the world, uh, south america to the eco film festival, patagonia, eco film festival in argentina and, uh, yeah, france. I was just got back from ireland two days ago. I was in cork at indie cork film festival and uh, then, um, a bunch of festivals in the united states too, yeah so.
Speaker 3:So I'm very curious then, as this film plays in all these diverse cultural locations, how does the films kind of the lifestyle that it depicts? How does that resonate with the different crowds that end up watching it? Because do you really feel like someone here in metropolitan Tacoma in the Pacific Northwest can have the same experience as maybe somebody down in Patagonia or somebody else in South America who's watching the film?
Speaker 2:I think it definitely is harder to do the lifestyle that the man and the Three Mules do in this country than it is in possibly any other country in the world, and we're the land of freedom and opportunity. But it turns out that if you want to do something like this, it's not so easy, john how, how long were you on the road with your subject?
Speaker 1:uh, for this documentary.
Speaker 2:I was following him for a total of 27 months.
Speaker 3:Holy cow but not every day.
Speaker 2:I would definitely be divorced.
Speaker 1:So you would meet up with him at like certain points in his journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably 200 days of total filming over 27 months. Uh, I gave him a spot GPS device so he could I could always locate him, whether it was wherever he was built in the wilderness or in a metropolitan area. He traveled in and out of both as much as he could, and so I would. If he was close to Los Angeles, where I was based at the time, I could pretty much go home at night. But as he got further and further away and it became more of a three hour drive to get to him, I think, three hours was about the maximum, I would say.
Speaker 2:And then I would start finding places to. Well, I'd drive. Yeah, yeah, I would drive, I took my mountain bike with me and then I would go and find where he was and, uh, follow him from that point until I felt like I needed to get back home again and then go back and forth and I probably followed up and down california about well, at least two, two times up and down from the mex border up into Northern California. Just gathering the footage.
Speaker 1:Were you journaling or vlogging yourself during this experience? Because I feel like this is almost like a documentary inside the documentary, of making the documentary, I mean, what a journey this film took you on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I did, um, a little bit of that, uh, where I put myself on camera sometimes, um, uh, to see how things were going and, uh, let people know how I was feeling, um, and I captured a lot of footage that ended up not being in the film, but I wasn't putting things out as I was doing the journey, cause I didn't have. I mean, I was exhausting enough just to do that. I didn't have time to go back and edit something together and put it out there. I just don't have those. I just can't do that. That's not my skill level.
Speaker 2:And but after the film was shot and I was trying to raise money, I put together these little video diaries, I called them, and I did the first 140 days and made little snippets that I would put out that were maximum about three minutes long and they kind of showed things, many things that didn't appear in the film at all, but just special moments of filming that I kind of would maybe know at the time weren't going to end up in the film. A few actually did, or at least clips out of them did end up in the film. So there was kind of a journal that was put and then after 140 days of that, even though I shot for 200 days. I just said I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 3:So I'm curious then, from a filmmaker's perspective, when you have those maybe wouldn't call them extended breaks, but when you're not continuously with your subject, is there any sort of strategy that you try to use where you come back together, you kind of learn what's been happening while you were away? How is the rapport like between you, the animals even, and then, of course, what you wanted to then decide to hit record back on.
Speaker 2:I like the way you brought the animals into it too, because they're as important if not more important than the story.
Speaker 2:The reason he calls himself Mule is he really identifies with a mule and he just says I'm one of them and they matter to him more than people. Really, he has grew through his life not really trusting people. He called me a friend and obviously it was a pleasure to see me again and we had good conversations and I really thank him so much for allowing me to spend that much time with him. The mules would greet me sometimes with some mule noises.
Speaker 2:Like this guy's back and sometimes their ears would go back, which shows a sign of dissatisfaction. They're not very happy. The ears would go back. And then the white mule little girl had a habit of ears going back and shaking her head and coming up and seeing that big microphone with a big hairy sock on it the furry sock and hated that and would come up and nose it and then sometimes try to bite me on my chest.
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:And nip me a few times, but always gently. Also, mules have this way of doing this cow kick where they can kick out to the side, and horses apparently can't do that Okay, and so I would go up next to them doing, sometimes walking with them holding the camera, and I'd feel the side kick come out and they could easily had just broken my. They know exactly where to hit, run on the knee, yeah, and that would have just broken my leg, but it's more like they knew just to give me a little, a little kick, just a love tap yeah yeah uh, john, how, how does one choose a subject for a documentary like what, what are you drawn to when you're looking for, uh, your next subject?
Speaker 2:well, I think, like so many documentary filmmakers, you don't necessarily, you're not commissioned to do a certain project and you're not, at least, with me. I'm not looking for what's going to be the next big hit, it's just everything has just comes. Comes to me in different ways, uh and uh. Within the case of mule, he came through my neighborhood when I was living down in south pasadena, california, and I just said there's a, there's a documentary right there.
Speaker 2:And so I followed him. He asked for some directions to get down to a place to spend the night. So I knew his general location, but I didn't have my camera with me. I just wanted to talk to him and then I went back. I told my wife she goes, don't get any ideas for another documentary, it's not going to happen. So the next morning I took the dog for a walk and I just happened to say I'm just going to drive down to the Arroyo, where I knew he'd be. And anyway, the rest is history.
Speaker 3:You said sorry, but I didn't listen.
Speaker 2:But you know I mean another one I'm doing right now just totally miraculously came about and it's just once I do commit, commit to something, and I think it's true with anything that someone commits to in their life.
Speaker 2:if you really commit to it, all kinds of amazing things just connect together and start happening and I've talked to so many filmmakers here and everywhere I go and it's just like with total commitment, if you're not doing it for the money, you're just doing it because you really believe in the subject, things start happening. It's happening with a project I'm doing now and I'm just even things that I've connected with at this festival kind of relate to that project and are helping to propel that forward.
Speaker 3:I want to hear more about the editing process of this film, because I heard you mention it a little bit when you and I were talking off mic the other day. But you were able to bring in your daughter to help you out with a lot of this. You already talked about how, how much you shot. So then what was that process like?
Speaker 2:figuring out exactly what was going to be in the film and kind of that collaboration between you and her well, uh yeah, I had worked with another editor who was a very good editor, not inexpensive editor, very busy doing other jobs. She became fascinated in the project and her name is Stephanie Matura. She lives in the Bay Area. We worked together to develop a New York Times op doc piece. Because they showed some interest in the project op doc piece. Because they showed some interest in the project, we got pretty far with it, had it cut together and then out of nowhere they just said we've decided it's not a good fit. That's the common thing you never know what the fit is or not. And so that kind of happened. But I had spent most of my budget. I had getting that put together, thinking that would propel to other things. I couldn't really afford Stephanie any longer together, thinking that would propel to other things. I couldn't really afford Stephanie any longer and she had to move on to other projects. She's cut a lot of PBS stuff and everything. So then it just kind of laid dormant for a long time.
Speaker 2:Covid hit my daughter was just starting an assistant editing career at a big production company down in Hollywood and got laid off down in Hollywood and got laid off. And almost before she got started she got laid off and she just had started working on my project a little bit to get that job because she needed to get her union card. So she said, can I just give a try on your project? I need 100 days, and so it was a really good rate. It was still acceptable to get in the union and so she started. And then the 100 days she got her 100 days but then we weren't done. It took more, like another two years, but because of getting in the union it helped her get a job and she's now working as a colorist down in Hollywood Very cool, one of the small group of people that actually have jobs still in Hollywood or in post-production in Hollywood.
Speaker 2:It's pretty bad. But she took the project on and just said Dad, I'm just going to throw out everything that's been done up to this point. We're going to start over again and I think the entire story should be told through his voice, through Mule's voice, and we'll just make it total cinema verite, observational, because as the experienced documentary filmmaker I had always done interviews and almost like that saves your ass in the end, do interviews, make sure you have interviews and she goes. That saves your ass in the end. Do interviews, make sure you have interviews and she goes. Dad, you don't need any of those interviews. I know you spent a lot of time doing those interviews, but you don't need other people telling their opinions or reflecting on the story. Let the audience give the audience some credit. Let them decide on their own. And I said, yeah, but some of those interviews are just great.
Speaker 2:I had interviews with police, judges, psychologists, people in the street, I mean the list goes on and on. I mean I really covered myself with interviews. So that taught me a really important lesson and I watch it with other documentaries now too, and I immediately can tell with some documentaries why the interviews. But other times they're, they work they have to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah so that's, that's so special, that you get to work on this with your daughter and that it's a. You know it's a. It's a family business, right? Uh, making this film Now, you've been a documentarian since the seventies I believe we were looking at your filmography and, uh, I was just kind of wondering, like, what has really changed from being a filmmaker and coming through the 70s, the 80s, the 90s and now here we are in the 2020s. Like what's the biggest challenge or change that you've faced as a filmmaker?
Speaker 2:Well, so much has evolved tech. You know, tech from technology standpoint I mean shooting on film, editing on film was a whole nother another ball game. Uh, I mean we had I shot on film for years and alpha cine, which was located up here in the northwest and was here until I think about five years ago. They had an office in hollywood and we always send our film, our raw stock, up here and had it printed and and I was looking forward to stock up here and had it printed and and I was looking forward to coming up here. We moved up four years ago and working with Alpha City and I said they are no longer it's kind of like uh, yeah, but um, it's uh, of course, like everyone says.
Speaker 2:you know, now we have uh moved, have moved to video and you could just shoot a lot more footage now. So you save yourself and you save yourself a lot of money in the production aspects because of that, but then you pay for it in the back end with the editing because it takes a lot longer.
Speaker 2:You just have so much more to go through. I've started my current project I'm doing now I actually started shooting stills for it with old cameras that my parents had used, and I'm going to mix new footage and old footage together and also with their 8mm movie camera from 1950. And then once again, it's back to shooting film and you're really careful with what you shoot and you really think about it, and it's a whole different thought process. On the other end, I'm shooting. The other camera in that particular project I'm working on now is the iPhone 16 Pro Max shooting raw footage, and so it's a home movie camera of today, and then I have the home movie camera of 1950. And merging it all together in itself artistically, is going to be an interesting, I think. Make an interesting absolutely so. When I you know you fill out on your entry forms for film festivals, what format did you shoot in?
Speaker 3:uh, iphone and eight millimeter well, I want to get you out of here on this, because I'm sure it's really hard as a documentarian to try to just close the book on on a film. You want to stay in contact with the people who you met, continue to know what their life is like. So what is, what is the relationship like now between you and Mule? Do you stay in contact? Is there a way that that relationship has continued off screen?
Speaker 2:We're not talking.
Speaker 3:Not talking, but I don't want to say that in a negative way. Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:But we're not talking. There was a point where, I think mutually, we felt like enough has been done. I was certainly sometimes a thorn in his side because I would bring attention to him that maybe he didn't want, also to myself, bring attention to him that maybe he didn't want, uh, also to myself I mean at one point, my, all my camera gear was stolen, smashed out of my car.
Speaker 2:Because it does bring attention. I'm there with a camera, people are obviously following us around. One day, uh, and it, um, I think, uh, I think we had enough. I mean, it was time for him to return to his life and, um, I think he realized you must have enough to make a film out of this, and so it would be comfortable. It would be like I had to see him again. My daughter actually was following him on Facebook. He has, on Facebook page, figured out where he was without looking for him, and actually met him in the mules and he was quite nice to her and so, yeah, yeah, he goes. Oh, yeah, you're John's daughter.
Speaker 2:So I know he's following me on Facebook somewhat because I've heard that I know he hasn't seen the film. I don't think he wants to see the film. I don't think he needs to see how his life is being portrayed a different way. He sees no reason to do that. I totally understand that, although I would love to have him show up with his meals and come to a screening.
Speaker 1:It would be amazing.
Speaker 3:Well, John, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to us and to share this amazing film with the Tacoma Film Festival.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're very welcome. Thanks very much.
Speaker 3:All right, we are back at the Tacoma Film Festival and delighted to be joined by Shannon Walsh, director of Adrian and the Castle. Shannon, thank you so much for taking the time out to chat with us this morning.
Speaker 6:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:So OK, I have to ask. There are so many different ways to tell a story, especially when you decide to make a feature film right, different genres, you can put it in all these different aspects of the storytelling process. What about this story made you feel like you wanted to tell it in this musical fashion?
Speaker 6:Yeah, when I first really entered the world of Adrian and Alan in the castle and their kind of castle of love, I realized they lived in this sort of fantasy bubble that they'd created for themselves. It was like a kind of world onto itself. I realized they lived in this sort of fantasy bubble that they'd created for themselves. It was like a kind of world onto itself, and music was also a huge part of their lives. Um, famously, adrian went to hair like over 250 times or something when it opened in Chicago. Um, in the seventies and um.
Speaker 3:I was going to say that had to have been a long time ago when you could afford to see something. Oh my God, right, yeah, exactly she was like front row.
Speaker 6:Yeah, exactly what would that have been back then? Yeah.
Speaker 1:That is a very interesting point.
Speaker 6:But yeah so, and they had put on Adrian Love to perform, they'd put on a Phantom of the Opera of her own creation in their local. So we knew that musicals were and the kind of over the top camp of the world that they also sort of loved and inhabited was a big part of the world. So I was often thinking about how do we use the world that they created as part of our tapestry of telling the story and that would feel really organic to to the world that they inhabit.
Speaker 1:Shannon as someone who and this is a documentary feature how do you go into someone's life like that and plant yourself in their life but also try to be invisible? Right, that is the mark of a good documentary when the subjects start forgetting that there's a camera on them.
Speaker 6:Did you?
Speaker 1:feel that you achieved that in this film.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I would say that's one of the things. We all have our different skill sets and maybe one of mine is to be know. We all have our different skill sets and maybe one of mine is is to be able to allow people to be at ease and to kind of talk to me directly and not worry so much about the camera and to open up, to feel like I'm safe and I can share my story here. And you know I often talk about the magic of the camera too. I think there's something especially starting out filmmakers don't always magic of the camera too. I think there's something especially starting out filmmakers don't always realize that the camera can sometimes act as the sort of that universal subject that you wish would see you for who you are. You know, like we all have that kind of deep need to just be understood deeply.
Speaker 6:And it's like whoever's on the other side of that black lens, is that eye, is that all seeing eye? If you can create an environment in which subjects feel safe enough to speak to that place um, both to you and to that place I think really magical stuff can happen and they can tell you stuff that they've never told anyone, um, and in a way, I think they're telling that that bigger space that is the audience on the other side, and we get really privileged as audiences to get to experience that when we get to see people. So with Alan, when you see the film, you'll see he's just an incredibly open person.
Speaker 6:It's hard to believe that he was sort of clustered and barely leaving the castle for 30 years. He seems quite worldly, but in fact, um, there's something almost, uh, quite innocent and on the surface about the way that he is that really inspired me as well. Like he's just got his emotions right there. He's not trying to trick you or hide something, and, um, and and I think their world that they created also was one that you feel like why aren't we just exactly our authentic selves? So part of it in this might have been me, but it was also meeting someone like Alan, who's like a documentarian's dream, who is really also up for all the crazy stuff we did with him, from singing on camera to creating costumes and performing with them, to casting someone to play a version of the love of his life. You know who he can't let go of. All of that was like really an ode to Alan's incredible ability to be engaged with the world and curious about it, which I think is what makes the film really special.
Speaker 3:So I'm always curious when we talk to documentary filmmakers about their review process. Have you found a strategy that works for you? Are you somebody that at the end of each day kind of goes back and reviews what you were able to capture that day? Or do you look at things in a more like incremental fashion, where it's like, okay, I'll look at this at the end of maybe the first calendar month of the shoot or however long it ends up taking? How do you go about reviewing your work?
Speaker 6:Well, I'm pretty methodical as a director. I believe in the writing process, so I write extensively. We have scripts, not that we're following, asking people to repeat lines or anything like that. I'm really, as like in the cinema, very tight tradition of I do really try to allow space, but we know what we're shooting for every day. I have a shooting schedule, like we know what we're getting out of every shoot day. So in that way it's not that unlike fiction in that we're not necessarily having the time to review dailies at the end of the day, but we're going to you knowies at the end of the day but we're gonna, you know, with the dp, um, whoever else is a key creative on that day. We will probably have a little like tatatat and talk about what happened.
Speaker 6:What did we miss? I usually know if I've gotten what I need or or not in terms of like content that we were aiming for, because I've written enough that I know kind of what we need to keep the arc of the story going. That said, the magic of documentary is that amazing stuff can happen that you didn't plan for at all and things that you thought were going to be great could turn out totally lame, and so you have to be like quick on your feet and ready to like shift on a dime. So those end of night conversations are often what did we get and what did we get excited about, and maybe what might we revise for tomorrow, and that kind of stuff, so yeah.
Speaker 6:And then I mean this film was shot in three blocks of shooting. So yeah, which were quite yeah. So we had to develop a very early development shoot and then a kind of secondary development shoot that collected quite a bit of the more. We started experimenting with music in that one and dancing and stuff, and then we had our kind of final shoot where we brought actors and folks to the set as well. So yeah, and then I don't start editing or doing anything like that, working with my editor, until we have all the footage.
Speaker 6:That's a lesson learned from bad behavior in which one you know you don't want to get lost in the footage, or you know, I think the job of the director is. You know you need to be looking at the piece as a whole.
Speaker 1:As a documentarian, though, how? How do you know when it, when it is the end, when it is? I've gotten everything that I need or want to make this project.
Speaker 6:There's a piece that's experienced certainly but, I think it's also to me.
Speaker 6:You know, like I teach doc now and I make my students spend half the year writing because I think it's very undervalued in our craft. But for people who make strong work, most of them are writing. So in that you do have a sense, you know you should have thought through, like what are maybe five variables, like how could this go in different ways and have I captured that or not? And and if you kind of know where it's going like, there's usually a place where you can say we can stop. I think there's situations in which you can realize, look, obviously any project could go on forever.
Speaker 6:But I think when you think, what is the story I'm telling, what's my point of view into this? We're not telling somebody's life, we're telling this part of a story. And what is the part that you're focused on? What's your directorial vision? I think when, when, as you get clear on that. Sometimes we don't know at the beginning, but hopefully, as you're working on a project for me, I'll usually buy, like the. I would hate to go to a a a big last shoot and not have that answer. I think that's really important to just help guide you in the field.
Speaker 3:I have a question, then, kind of about emotional investment. When you're making a film, do you? You say you teach documentary? Is there something that you advise your students, like a balance to try to find between really investing in building this rapport with your subjects versus staying neutral and trying to remain? Objective and quote unquote on your side of the camera. Is that something that you think about?
Speaker 6:oh well, I don't think we're journalists.
Speaker 6:So to me, you know we're documentary is the creative art of non-fiction right so I mean the creative treatment of actuality, as john grayson famously said, but I mean to me, without point of view, what are we doing? Um, so, absolutely, point of view, I think, is, you know, I don't think, these days especially, that you can say, hey, I made a film about this and not have the answer to the question why you, why did you make it, what about you? How do you have, like, what's your position in telling the story and that is so interesting in telling us about the story itself? Right, we're in an engagement with the subjects. We're in a relationship absolutely every time, and that has a lot of ethical implications to it.
Speaker 6:So, yeah, I think to me that's not a question of saying who should or shouldn't tell stories. It's much more of an exciting question about where do I connect and where can I find the place in which I can tell this with authenticity. I think that's really important. I actually put a book out this year called the Documentary Filmmaker's Intuition. That is available online. You can get it on all the major uh services.
Speaker 6:But that I do talk a lot about kind of some of those types of questions, about thinking about ethics and um thinking about relationships, because it's such an important part of what we do and think about writing I, I and if, if you don't want to answer this question, would you be willing to answer the question why you for this project?
Speaker 6:Absolutely, I mean yeah, I think always it's important. Yeah, so with Adrian and the castle. We first heard about the castle through my best friend actually, who grew up in the neighboring town of Galena. The castle is in Savannah, illinois. It's actually open to the public weekends in October and April Timely.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it is, it's open now if you want to visit Um. But yeah, her sister had visited the castle and then told her about it and you know she and I had worked on a lot of creative projects together. She's also a musician under the moniker little scream. And um, she said, look, shannon, you got to check this out. And when I went to the castle it just really, you know, I didn't actually go first, it was COVID. So we started talking to Alan on Zoom and you know, I just Alan. When you meet him in the film you can see, I think why. But he's just such, you know, I just love Alan to death still.
Speaker 6:But during that period, the first time I went out to film as well, um, I lost my dad as well to COVID. Um, and the first shoot that we had in the house, like I was wondering, you know, okay, the house is kind of crazy, this couple's quite eccentric, but what's the story here? Like, what? What story are telling? And that's a lot of the writing process before we're even rolling Um, but this grief that he was holding and this deep love that was connected with the grief, um, when I first went and had, was having my own experience of like extreme loss and love.
Speaker 6:Um, yeah, I just Alan became a guide for me as well and we shared a lot. I shared with him and, and I think we shared a lot of mutual understanding of what that means. My story isn't in the film a lot. I have like a little brief. There's a brief appearance in the film, but it's not about me, this film at all but at the same time, I think it allowed me um and a place in which I could connect to him and, I think, bring that part of his story out, which is sometimes the thing we don't want to talk about, which is what do we do when we lose someone we love, whether that's from death or sometimes breakup, like how do we move on? I think those questions were really active for me. So, yeah, it felt like timely and exactly the right, the right thing for me to be making it's fascinating to to hear about that's making me emotional, I know wait
Speaker 6:till you wait till you see the film. I mean I always tell people bring a tissue you know some people you know and, and it's been really beautiful.
Speaker 6:we're doing some screenings where we have people coming in to talk about grief and we have, you know, or mediums, because Alan used a medium quite a bit, but they also we also love. We're encouraging people to dress up at screenings and come in costume because they really lived a world of creative imagination. So it's that strange mix of joy and grief that I think is like the foundation of life.
Speaker 1:Has Alan seen the film and what was the reaction?
Speaker 6:Yeah, definitely. I mean Alan was a huge collaborator all the way through the process and so. But my process often with subjects is I don't send work in progress.
Speaker 6:I find it's very hard, sitting alone in your room and especially when it's talking about a huge and very emotional subject for him to judge yourself accurately.
Speaker 6:So generally I wait till there's a good point.
Speaker 6:So Laurel and I went down to the castle and brought the film when it was almost finished and it was kind of an early Christmas present for Alan and we sat in the in the castle and watched it with him and we we cried and we laughed and, um, when we left that night and Alan was just like this is a piece of art, like I couldn't you know, and he watched it something like 20 times on repeat, like over the following days.
Speaker 6:Um, yeah, and he joined us at South by Southwest when we premiered the film and yeah, he has been, he loves the film and yeah, it's a very much part of his life and he talks about how it's also helped him have a relationship with his own grief or see it in a different way, which I think is really profound. But yeah, we're in close contact all the time and he'll, he comes to screens when he can. He doesn't really love leaving the castle and there's tours right now, but he sent his love this morning to this screening here in Tacoma and was saying tell them I say hello.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. Well, so then, what's next for the film, before we get you out of here?
Speaker 6:Yeah, so we are still on festival tour, but we are opening a theatrical in the US starting October 25th at Village East in New York, followed by screenings in Chicago and LA, and you can follow us on Adrian and the Castle, on Instagram or whatever platforms you use, and follow along where you can see the film. And we're still a little film with a lot of heart and we're definitely looking for people to get the word out there. It's a tough, uh tough environment for doc filmmakers um trying to get their films um in circulation. So please watch and, um, yeah, follow us where you can and ask to see the film wherever you are well.
Speaker 3:We are so appreciative that you brought it to Tacoma this year.
Speaker 6:I'm so glad to be here. This is going to be really fun. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
