Excuse the Intermission
Alex and Max take you on a journey through film with this discussion podcast about movies.
Excuse the Intermission
Ridley Scott Film Bracket Showdown: Gladiator 2 Anticipation and Cinematic Classics
Get ready for a cinematic showdown unlike any other! We brought on Marcus Baker of the Seattle Film Society to join us as we navigate the excitement, skepticism, and Oscar buzz surrounding Ridley Scott's highly anticipated sequel, Gladiator 2. Marcus shares the latest from his jam-packed schedule, including the Seattle Film Society's Locals Only anniversary and their captivating In Focus showcase. While he can't wait to see Paul Mescal take the spotlight, skepticism looms about whether Gladiator 2 will match the original's glory or outshine Scott's recent releases like Napoleon and House of Gucci. We also ponder its box office prospects against heavy hitters like Wicked and Moana 2 during the Thanksgiving rush.
Tune in as we take a look at Ridley Scott's illustrious career through a film bracket challenge, where unexpected matchups and thrilling upsets reign supreme. Whether it's the early brilliance of The Duelists or the grandiose spectacle of Kingdom of Heaven, there's no shortage of debate fodder here. We compare giants of cinema, like the stylish American Gangster and the haunting Alien, offering our takes on Scott's ability to craft memorable characters and narratives that leave a lasting impression. Our bracket showdown reveals our personal favorites, and you might just be surprised by the film that rises to the top.
For those who relish a spirited discussion on the greatest works of Ridley Scott, from science fiction marvels to historical epics, this episode is your VIP ticket. Whether we're dissecting the mismatched charms of Legend or applauding the epic scope of Kingdom of Heaven, there's something for every film buff to appreciate. Join us in celebrating Ridley Scott's contributions to cinema, as we highlight his storytelling prowess and the enduring impact of his diverse filmography. The debate is fierce, the opinions are passionate, and this episode offers film lovers a comprehensive exploration of Scott's legendary work.
how's it?
Speaker 1:I'm alex macaulay and I'm max fosberg and this is excuse the intermission a discussion show surrounding yet again another sir ridley scott conversation. Ridley's new film, gladiator 2, opens this weekend and figures to play big at the box office throughout the thanksgiving weekend. Our good buddy, marcus baker, is back to help us anticipate that film and then we will all partake in the highly competitive Ridley Scott film bracket. All that up next. But first a quick break. All right, marcus, welcome back. We're thrilled to have you on for this episode. We'll get your thoughts and expectations for Gladiator 2 here in a minute. But first off, how are you doing today? What's going on in your world?
Speaker 3:I'm good man. Yeah, things are busy. Lots of lots of stuff going on with the Seattle Film Society, Lots of stuff going on with my own films. I'm waiting to hear back on some film festivals and just so busy times as always.
Speaker 1:So I know that the one year anniversary, I believe, of Locals Only is coming up. You want to talk about what you guys are doing to celebrate that and kind of what that project has meant to you over the past calendar year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's so. Our one year anniversary like our locals, only one year anniversary is coming up on Wednesday, the 20th I believe that's the day after, the day before that this episode comes out, but that's coming up and we're doing a retrospective where we're going to be screening three shorts that we had screened over the past year, with intros by some members of our programming team. It's really exciting. I can't believe it's been a year. Honestly, we've grown so much and so many people have come out and been a part of it and I'm just excited to see it keep growing and see, see it continue to benefit the community.
Speaker 2:So that's awesome, Marcus. Congrats to you and everyone there who works hard on those locals. Only If you're in the Seattle area. The Seattle Film Society is just such an awesome, awesome group to be a part of, so thanks for all your hard work over the past year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, thank you, yeah. And we also just had our In Focus event, which was like a showcase for Justin Robert Vanall, who's a local horror filmmaker, and that went really well and again. I just feel so lucky to be able to uh do things like that with such an amazing group of people.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's really cool. Max was going to a lot of those and then, um, I think he used it to find a new partner. He met caitlin.
Speaker 3:He stopped going I mean he's trying to steal one of my programmers.
Speaker 2:We're doing this virtually but what he doesn't know is that I'm going to hunt him down. Yeah, I haven't been able to be in the presence of markets.
Speaker 1:Marcus in a while. You got him shook. You can't show his face anymore. No, I I hope to get up there to one of them as well. I always love you know. The next day check in to see the story post and the grid post and everything that you guys are doing. You're doing a great job running the program. So, like Max said, just want to echo my sentiments and congratulations for the Seattle Film Fest and the Locals Only Project and then, yeah, much more to come with your own short films. Can't wait to hear more about those in the future. We're here to talk about Ridley Scott, though We'll kind of get to your thoughts on Ridley here before we start our bracket and kind of your history with his films. But what are you expecting for Gladiator 2? It comes out this upcoming weekend.
Speaker 3:You know this is, I don't know if we should say long awaited sequel. I don't know if anybody needed a Gladiator sequel, but since we are getting it, since it is of get that with legacy sequels in general, where you know you've got these big generational audiences, you've got, you know, kids who probably saw the movie with their dad and then you know, they've grown up with it and so it seems like a big, like a, like a big dad movie, like you know, an intergenerational dad movie, if you will. So I'm expecting big things box office wise. Um, I'm really excited because of paul mescal. I'm all in on paul mescal, um, so I I'm I'm really excited for it. I think it's gonna be, um, I think it's probably gonna be better than like the reviews. I, or I think I'm gonna like it more than like the reviews, which have been kind of mixed to good. I would say, um, so I'm expecting big things from it.
Speaker 2:I'd say uh, I expect it to stink. Uh, I think, uh, I think it's gonna be a big disappointment. I think it's gonna be a lot of the same from the original it's going to be. I feel like it's going to just retread that whole movie. I think that's really disappointing. I am excited to see Denzel Washington in this film as someone. He has some sort of power in this movie, like as a roman empire's emperor or something like that. Um, but yeah, I, I just as far as this legacy sequel goes, it's just one that I don't think is needed or warranted. And there's a lot, I don't know the these trailers. There's a lot of a lot of cgi and I, you know, I like ridley, but I think it's gonna be a big miss I think I guess I'm somewhere in between.
Speaker 1:I think probably good is where I'm landing. As far as my expectations for it, I don't think it's going to be great. However, the bar is kind of low right now, coming off of something like Napoleon and then especially House of Gucci. So could it be his best late period film, if we're trying to break it down into segments of his career, I hope. I hope that there's still a ton of production stuff that I really, really, really enjoy about napoleon, because that's just ridley's, that's the scott free epic brand right there, and so I hope that with gladiator 2 we get more of that prime, that that peak ridley epic action director, as opposed to what we did get in Napoleon, which was a lot of jumping around and not a less than average sense of continuity between scenes and time periods.
Speaker 1:And I've yet to watch the director's cut. I did not do my homework for this episode. I know Apple TV Plus has the three hour and 24 minute version of that available to stream now and I am the biggest the like, the biggest stand for a Ridley Scott director's cut. But what I saw in the theater was just that was enough for me, and maybe in 10 years. If a million other people are saying you got to watch it, then I'll return to that. But I think I think he can return to hopefully his his peak there and kind of the mid-2000s of of action epics and even if he is retread, retreading um some, some familiar things with the first gladiator, that might not be the worst case gladiator, one best picture. So we'll, we'll see here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think I don't think it's gonna be the one that nets him his, uh, his best director, oscar, which is I'm. I was surprised to learn that he hasn't won that. I mean of all the films he's directed, you think even for gladiator maybe. But, um, I, I, I think, if anything, to max's point of it being a retread. I think it's really hard to be a retread when you're putting sharks in the coliseum, so I think I think it's just something to consider. Um, uh, yeah, I, I I hear you, though I I hear both you guys, and I definitely wouldn't disagree with, kind of with both, with both sides there.
Speaker 1:I do. I am very excited for Paul Mezcal, pedro Pascal and Joseph Quinn. I think the three of them are gonna bring a lot of energy. And then Denzel if he's chewing on the scenery and really hamming it up, that's gonna be fun. It's hard to it's hard to feel like Denzel can be anybody other than just Denzel now at this point in his career.
Speaker 2:If Denzel doesn't walk into the Coliseum and go, my man and dap somebody up.
Speaker 3:I mean look if he does that that movie gets five stars from me.
Speaker 1:I do like Connie Nielsen coming back. It'll be interesting to see what role she plays. I was looking at the casting too and excited to see her in that fourth or fifth build spot. So excited for that. I'm also excited. John Matheson is the director of photography on this film. Matheson is the director of photography on this film. Darius Wolski has been his kind of go-to cinematographer over the past 15 years, but this guy, john Matheson, shot the original Gladiator and then he also did Kingdom of Heaven and Robin Hood with Ridley, so to maybe try to recapture some of that mid-2000s magic. Now your mileage may vary on those films, but that gives me hope. I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1:And then the runtime is the last thing I think we'll talk about here, because we just mentioned this on a previous episode. When going into seeing Anora, I didn't know that it was a two hour and 15 minute movie. Before I went and saw the Substance, I didn't know that that was a two and a half hour movie. This is also a two and a half hour film and so you know, I kind of want to get both your opinions on this. As filmmakers, I think you probably know that not all runtimes are created equally Like the Substance just flew by for me as a two and a half hour film. Hearing that this movie is pushing 150 minutes has me a little worried because I feel like there could be some serious lulls in the action if that plot structure isn't like a1. So what do you guys think about that as far as like a component to how you're going to view this film?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean it's interesting because I think I watched a lot of ridley scott for this episode obviously, um, and I had not really watched a lot of ridley Scott for this episode obviously, and I had not really watched a lot of Ridley Scott before, at least not like intentionally watching Ridley Scott movies, and in doing so I mean like all of his movies are like two hours minimum.
Speaker 3:I think the Duelist is maybe like 95 minutes or something. Maybe it's like around there, but like he really doesn't make movies that are under two hours and so I think, like kind of a byproduct of that is like he usually knows how to use that time effectively. But I mean, it's kind of like you said with the substance, where like I didn't see the substance, but like if a movie is using that time effectively, you're not even gonna feel those two and a half hours, but if it's kind of dragging, then you're really gonna be, you're gonna be checking your watch and like god, two and a half hours, this is killing me, um. So yeah, I I trust ridley generally. Um, I mean, we'll get into my picks here, but uh, I I trust him with the runtime.
Speaker 2:I I think he can go either way at this point um, yeah, you know, I, I think long movies are definitely a ridley scott staple and when you look at something like Napoleon, which you know, that plot and that story was horrendous so that you are falling asleep, right. I mean there are lulls, huge lulls, and then jumping around from place to place and not making sense plot wise. I think it really comes down to what story he's trying to tell.
Speaker 2:Now, if and if he is doing what I think he's doing with gladiator 2 um you know, because the first gladiator is around two, two hours and 30 minutes and it flies by pretty well, it moves pretty good, and so if he sticks to that structure, I think this movie will be. It'll be fine. I don't think. You'll hopefully not feel it. Um, but you know ridley. Ridley is known to, to, to linger, you know, uh, and so yeah, it's, I think it's a little bit of a concern, but again he doesn't make anything under two hours. So you know it's a little bit of a concern, but again he doesn't make anything under two hours. So you know it's a Ridley Scott movie. You should know that going in.
Speaker 1:So it's going to be interesting to see what it does at the box office as well. I think we are all probably expecting it to do good business. However, it is going up against Wicked in direct competition this weekend is going up against Wicked in direct competition this weekend and then it'll play throughout the remainder of the Thanksgiving weekend against things like Moana 2. I expect those films to outgross it in the long run, but I was watching the NFL yesterday and every single commercial break has a clip for Gladiator 2. I know the theatrical trailers have had the no Church in the Wild Watch the Throne song cut over it, and so there's been a full court press to market this movie as much as possible. Do you think it will do well? Because something like Napoleon, which had a similar marketing campaign, really bombed in the theaters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's going to do way better than Napoleon Again, like these legacy sequels that's kind of like the bread and butter of them, right. Like, oh, this will get people to come back to the theater because it is a kind of a retread or a sequel, a continuation of something they loved from 20 years ago ago. Um, I will say, you know, going up against wicked this weekend, I think whoever wins, like the box office and the critical appreciation, uh of these two movies, will be in the best picture nomination race, uh, and so it's, it's critical that that gladiator 2 does huge numbers and is a decent enough movie to beat out Wicked.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great call.
Speaker 3:I think honestly, I think it's kind of, I think almost the opposite. Yeah, because I think Wicked and Moana are more in direct competition than Gladiators with either of those. I think Gladiator is the counter-programming there with either of those. I think gladiators the counter programming there, um, and I think I would venture to say that just because they're like it didn't immediately like ignite critics, um, I think it's probably you can probably kind of write it out of a lot of like oscar stuff that isn't like craft categories, um, but at this I feel like, if anything not to you know, hijack it, but I feel like it's a it's a much bigger week, uh weekend, for wicked, uh, in terms of like oscars and things like that, because, like that movie needs to like explode on impact in order for it to, like, you know, vault into the os Oscar race and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:Because I mean I'm kind of waiting for the, the review embargo to go down, because I really want to hear what the opinions of it are. I feel like I don't know I'm I'm really mixed on those trailers. As far as Gladiator goes, I mean I think it's it's already been a big hit, like, and I think it's already been a big hit. I think it opened in 63 territories this past weekend and it made like 87 million. So I mean it's already a pretty sizable hit all told, and I think it's going to continue to do so at the box office.
Speaker 1:Ridley's films usually do open very well internationally, so that'll be something to pay attention to, not just the domestic gross. And I do agree with you that I think that the target demo for Wicked and Moana are much similar than any sort of Venn diagram that you would create with one of those two films and Napoleon it. Just as we know, though, so many people are gladiator yes, thank you. It is so interesting, though so many people are gladiator yes, thank you. It is so interesting, though, because so many people, even over a holiday weekend, they will only go see one thing, though, and so I do think that you know the gladiator audience is. It does come built in, and whether it's, you know, dad Corps or Letterboxd Bros or whoever it is that's filling the seats, it will get some play. That that will be for certain.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's go to our Ridley Scott bracket, which is kind of the focus for this episode. We've highlighted Ridley a lot on this show before. We've done a Ridley Scott draft. A handful of years ago, we also did an episode format that we've never returned to with any other director, but when Napoleon came out, we played Ridley Scott poker. Do you remember that, max?
Speaker 3:I do. Yeah, I remember I listened to that.
Speaker 1:That was. That was unconventional. We'll just leave it at that. This bracket episode. This is more conventional. We've done this before with a lot of different filmmakers with a of different film genres, and so we're pretty comfortable with it.
Speaker 1:Marcus, you get the basic bracket format. I don't think we need to explain any of that to you, but just so our voters know. What we did is we've taken all 28 of ridley scott's films his films that he's directed, not including gladiator. We've looked up their IMDb ratings. We've seeded his films 1 through 28, with the highest rating film being a number one seed, the lowest rating film being the 28th seed. If there were any ratings that were the same, we then looked to the total votes on IMDb for the tiebreaker. So, for instance, if one film was a 7.5 and the other film was a 7.5, we took the film with the most overall votes.
Speaker 1:The top four films have a buy. Those four films are Gladiator, the Martian, alien and Blade Runner. So they will not compete until we get into our second round here, and once we do that we will reseed with our four remaining films. We have a graphic here on our end. We're doing this virtually so we can keep track. Hopefully it all translates well into a good audio podcast here. My question for the two of you, before we get started do you have any expectations now for this bracket? Do you think one of those four first round by films will walk away with the championship here? Do you think that there's a path for an upset, even a deep run by, maybe a double digit seed, a seed in the 20s? What have you kind of looked at here as the uh overall big picture?
Speaker 2:I think with ridley anything can happen there's. There's so much really so interesting, because he either does like really violent, uh, period pieces, really corrupt, like modern day pieces, or really horrific future pieces uh, and so the the type of films that we've got, I feel like, and just looking early at the matchups, there's going to be some really interesting conversations, but I am kind of thinking that none of the four I think something other than the four, the top four might win this bracket. I think something other than the four, the top four might win this bracket.
Speaker 3:I don't think there's a world in which something in the top four doesn't win. That said, just cause, like you, look at the top four and it's just like stone cold classics, like movies that, like I could go up to just about anyone and be like, do you like this movie? And they'd say yes, and so I don't think there's a world in which one of those doesn't win. That said, there's definitely a couple spots here where I could see some double-digit seeds making a deep run. There's a handful here that I'll bulldoze the path myself if I have to like I'm excited, I'm excited, it's gonna be fun I.
Speaker 1:I do think that the the two for one split here, that that will be created by having the three of us vote on these, and sure there could be like a 3-0 sweep and a huge upset, but there is the opportunity for, like you know, we're going to get to it because it's one of our first matchups A little bit of chaos. They're like if we just want to ride for the counselor, marcus, we could, and Max wouldn't be able to stop us, you know, and Max wouldn't be able to stop us.
Speaker 2:You know the Counselor. I can't wait to get to that matchup because the. Counselor is an extremely interesting movie.
Speaker 3:I can't wait to get to that and to the White Squall matchup because that movie, what a trip.
Speaker 1:Those are all really good. Um, okay, so as, as the bracket lays out here in front of us, um, we have, we have our first round and we'll sort of just go through these. Um, this will be our time, I think, to have sort of our longest discussions about, maybe, some of the films that don't advance and for the films that we do foresee advancing, we save some of those conversations for the later rounds. But so this is a really interesting matchup. This is our 1617, so right in the middle, sandwiched together between 1 and 28, we have the 16th seed film, all the money in the in the world, going up against robin hood from 2010. I'll start it off here. Saw both these movies in the theater.
Speaker 1:I remember going to see All the Money in the World with huge expectations. The tea leaves behind the casting of All the Money in the World and how the Christopher Plummer character was originally going to be played by Kevin Spacey right before the Kevin Spacey scandal broke out has a huge impact on this entire production. Tracy scandal broke out has a huge impact on this entire production. All the money in the world not as successful as it could be kind of a one-off for Ridley to go and do a dramatic crime thriller like this. Um, that that doesn't have the Epic feel like something compared to, maybe American gangster. So just a really interesting movie that I don't think is all that effective and really all that good. And then I ride for the director's cut of Robin Hood. I'll just leave it at that. We'll see what you guys think. But Robin Hood is a special movie. It holds a special place in my heart.
Speaker 2:Marcus, do you want to go next?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I mean I got it. I'll be. I'll be honest here. I got through a lot of ridley scott's. These are two I did not get to, um, so I'm really going on my gut here. Um, I like that ridley was able to like go in and like remake all the money in the world without kevin spacey in it on the fly, so that. So I think that's a point in its favor. Robin Hood how many Robin Hood adaptions do we need? Is this one that good? Alex, I know you love it. I mean, I'm pretty swayable on this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it's interesting because Robin Hood is kind of a direct response in 2010 to some of his other films, like Body of Lies, not working for him. So then he's like, okay, well, I need to go back to Russell Crowe, I need to gladiator something with him, do a period piece and makes a pretty fun like costume action movie out of Robin Hood, which he's good at yeah, which he's really good at. And I would say, you know, out of the live action Robin Hood movies we've gotten, this is probably the best one. You know, if you compare it to something like Kevin Costner's from the nineties or what, wasn't there like a Taron Egerton one called the hood, or something like Kevin Costner's from the 90s? Or wasn't there like a Taron Edgerton one called the Hood or something like that that came out a couple of years ago?
Speaker 3:Are we including Robin Hood men in tights in this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, men in tights, yeah, yeah, yeah, throw that in there. All the Money in the World is a movie that just simply much like kind of how I feel about House of Gucci like it's Ridley trying to grandiose something that has no grandiose right, like it has. He is a very Ridley is a very epic, a very grand filmmaker. He likes to do big, big movies with big stories and he can usually apply that to really any any movie that he does.
Speaker 2:all the money in the world is one of those movies that it just does not work at all, for me at least and and it is one of those movies that kind of jumps around and but then is constantly in a lull, uh, in the middle of those set pieces.
Speaker 3:Um, so yeah, my, my votes for robin hood as well I I will say I do want to say to the point of all the money in the world, I think you could even make the case of it being kind of like um of a piece with the last duel and that like it. When he's not going with these you know huge set pieces of sweeping dramas. He's also very interested in kind of like chamber chamber drama like, and I I always find that really interesting. So again, I I haven't seen them, so I'm a little bit swayable, but yeah, that's kind of I think it. I think it's an interesting point to to consider.
Speaker 1:I'd say All right Scorekeeper lock in Robin hood.
Speaker 2:Is that an official vote?
Speaker 3:there, that's an official vote.
Speaker 1:We can go three yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a clean sweep for Robin hood All right.
Speaker 1:So we'll see what that does with the seeding now going forward here. Our next two are these are interesting as well. These are two that I think definitely merited viewing because of the matchup. We have the number 8th seed, the duelist, actually very highly regarded on IMDB versus the 25th seed someone to watch over me yes, that is a real title of a ridley scott film from the 80s, a very interesting movie. I'm going to defer here because I'm very um, I I'm locked in on this matchup. I already know which way I'm leaning, so curious to hear somebody who maybe might be on the fence a little bit more.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting because someone to watch over me is kind of like his version of the bodyguard.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. That sounds like some shit I'd love.
Speaker 1:Did you not get to this one? I didn't get to that one. No, there's a few on this that I didn't get to that one.
Speaker 3:No, there's a few on this that I didn't get to, but, man, I guess I got.
Speaker 2:I really gotta watch that now uh, and like you know, it's it's definitely before the bodyguard, um, I believe. But uh, yeah, it's like an inner city, like cop story who's protecting, um, uh, an individual and then they kind of fall in love. Uh, you know, it has has some interesting stuff, kind of a random. You know he does a couple of these movies in the 80s where, like, again going, I guess, going away from that that big, huge storytelling and doing more of a chamber piece, like like Marcus was just saying. You know this, I think someone to watch over me is almost kind of like the it's like the pregame warmup to what black rain then becomes kind of. Where I think he is trying.
Speaker 2:He does want to go into like this gritty cop drama and make a crime movie, but but he maybe is held back a little bit by who knows the powers that be to make it this into more of a romantic story, um, really interesting. But then the duelist on the other side is I watched that for the first time and I was really pleasantly surprised where, again, like he is talking about like the past and and doing a period piece and you could, you could easily get into like you know it kind of talks about like, or it talks with the last duel and something like napoleon, where he is really interested in like the uh arrhythmic and the uh culture of military men. But again, this is a very small, tight like chamber piece and um, for my money I I enjoyed the duelist a little bit more. So you know I'll put down the first vote for the duelist.
Speaker 3:Oh, did you want to go, Alex?
Speaker 1:So you've seen the duelist, correct, marcus? I have seen the duelist, okay. Well then, I definitely need to make the case for someone to watch over me before you vote, because that's where I am putting my vote is for someone to watch over me, because I love Ridley Scott for his sci-fi films. I love him for his sword and shield epics, but I also love him for his super bizarre one-offs and that's why I love films like the counselor. That's why I love films like matchstick men and that is now why I also love films like someone to watch over me, because this is like the bodyguard, or it's got a little bit of body heat in it as well. It has these elements of those 80s and 90s like erotic thrillers. And then yet there's also so much groundwork being done for something like american gangster, because there is a new york mob figure and we are dealing with classism here between the upper elite of Manhattan and then a working cop in Queens, much like the Russell Crowe character juxtaposed to Denzel's character in American Gangster. And so it's so interesting to see these worlds collide and these personalities collide, and I just kind of couldn't believe that this was a Ridley Scott movie in the time that it came out in his career, like yes, the duelist is his first feature film and then he goes on to international, worldwide stardom by making Alien and Blade Runner. But then it's just so strange to me, you know, like Legend in 85 feels like an appropriate follow-up to those two films, but then the fact that he just gets like hired off like some mercenary to come in and make a movie like this, I'm just like how in the world did the studio pick him to make this movie? And it, for the most part like works pretty well, like this is uh, I watched it on tubi. It is such a tubi classic five o'clock on a Saturday, a great movie to put on in the late afternoon.
Speaker 1:Like I was so pleasantly surprised by someone to watch over me and I thought that this was going to be way more sappy than it is, way more romantic than it is. It does have a lot of that that um kind of erotic drama energy, but it's also gritty and dark, like and doesn't. It's got a happy ending but it it takes a while to get there. Like it's pretty, pretty hopeless at times here. Um, and I'm almost wondering like are they just gonna end this where?
Speaker 1:You know tom um beringer, who I, aside from, like platoon, never really have had a relationship with him on screen in any other role. And same with Mimi Rogers, and I'm just like it. Was there anyone more attractive than Mimi Rogers in the 80s? Like my goodness um. So just this movie kind of blew me away for all the things that that it is. And then when I look at the duelist I understand that the last duel is not a direct remake of this film, but I think everything that he does in the Duelist he does better in something like the Last Duel, which is in very much like heavy conversation with that film, and I quite like the Last Duel and so I think that it would be a little silly to put forward two movies that are that alike. So for me it's someone to watch over for me.
Speaker 3:Uh, yeah, and I mean I I definitely get that argument, I think. Before I even get into this, I want to correct myself really quick before we go too far down the line with our terminology wrong. The term I was looking for was not chamber pieces, palace intrigue, because I think he's like, especially in like the last duel, you're getting a lot of like palace intrigue and all this kind of stuff, the same kind of stuff you get in dune, which I think is great. Um, I, I do love the idea of ridley scott, like looking at like this whole trend of like like movies, like body heat and things like that, and be like I could do that, like I find that really entertaining. Just to think about and just based on your description, someone to Watch Over Me sounds like an incredible movie that I would probably really enjoy. I think the reason I choose the Last Duel.
Speaker 3:There's a couple of things I really love, just first films in general and I, I believe, outside of like some student shorts, that's his like first feature film. Um, I'm very much in like the david lynch camp of like you know, a director's first film is their best film because everything comes out of that and grows out of that. Um, I also think that and and I think even in that spirit there's also there's a sort of class element to dualists that I obviously really love, but there's also this kind of nihilism or absurdism that streaks through all of his work, certainly in the counselor, I would say, where it's like sometimes that nihilism is like just sometimes it's just so bleak and you're like man, I, I don't know how I'm even watching this and sometimes it's like brad pitt being like, yeah, man, like you fucked up, and so I, I, I think all of that really starts in the duelist for me, uh, the duelists, I should say, and so that's, that's my main reason for putting that one forward all right, two to one, then it moves forward.
Speaker 2:The Duelist.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, people though.
Speaker 3:I gotta check it out, I bet I would like that.
Speaker 1:It's a 2B classic, Alright Max. You want to do the next one, Because it's going to be hard for me to be bipartisan on this.
Speaker 2:The next matchup is the number nine seed, kingdom of heaven, and the number 24 seed. The only time he's ever worked with tom cruise, the 1985 film legend. Uh, I'll start us off, apart from some of the production, design and makeup and effects and legend, that movie to me is pretty, pretty bad. Uh, the acting is bad. Tom cruise is is really bad.
Speaker 2:Uh, the fantasy element you know it doesn't really work. The story is like convoluted. You know it's funny that, uh Ridley. Then, you know it seemed like he just wanted to shoot unicorn scenes so then he could go insert those into Blade Runner later and hit one of his director cuts. Um, but yeah, other than Tim Curry, like as the devil, like that. That is some amazing makeup and a really fun performance.
Speaker 2:But the rest of this movie just does not work for me. And Kingdom of Heaven, especially on every time I return to that film, especially the director's cut. If you haven't seen the director's cut, that's what you need to watch and I know it's longer but it's so much better. But Kingdom of Heaven, I feel like just keeps, continues to grow in my estimation. Just the mere scale of that film is absolutely insane and kind of something you know. I think that's really cool about Ridley too is that you know his scale is something you know that is becoming a dying art. Uh, as we go further and further into modern technology, um and so, kingdom of heaven, I think, will end up standing the test of time. Uh, where legend, you know, unless you saw it like as a nine-year-old, you're probably you, you're not gonna find very much enjoyment out of it.
Speaker 2:So my vote's for Kingdom of Heaven.
Speaker 3:I'm going to vote Kingdom of Heaven. I'm going to explain why I like Legend at least. Why I like legend at least? Um, because I I of the like ridley scotts, that I didn't get to kingdom of heaven is the one that I got that I didn't get to that I got closest to watching. There were like several nights where I was sitting on my couch staring at it on hulu being tonight's the night, and I just never hit play. But I really like legend as like a cultural object.
Speaker 3:I find it very fascinating, obviously like Ridley and Cruise.
Speaker 3:Like Cruise is so miscast and like you, like you never you don't see that Like certainly not Tom Cruise right now and like even early on in his career, like he's he's very rarely, I would say, like this deeply miscast, but he just does not read as someone who belongs in this time period.
Speaker 3:It's sort of like when you see like someone today in like a like a 50s film and you'd be like, yeah, that face has seen a cell phone though, you know, and I just it's just really interesting to watch and Scott is like you can tell he loves the craft of it, because the craft in that movie is like absolutely incredible to like behold, and I mean that to like behold like you watch that movie, in that movie is like absolutely incredible. To like behold, and I mean that to like behold, like you watch that movie and every frame is like lovingly pieced together and there's some incredible stunts in it. There's some incredible like set pieces. Um, there's a lot of great parts, but none of them fit together at all. Um, and so I, I like legend again, it's like an object, but it's not good.
Speaker 1:Uh, Mike Tomlin had a great quote the other day after the Steelers went against the Ravens, where someone asked him about his offenses performance and if you pay attention to the NFL you'll know that the offense scored zero points and they won on six field goals. His, his simple response was w this, this one for me, kingdom, kingdom of heaven W.
Speaker 3:I love that you led with a Mike Tomlin quote. Alex McCullough if you can think of Coming off of Raven's win.
Speaker 1:I'm surprised it took me this long.
Speaker 3:I should have placed a side bet with Max for how long it would take.
Speaker 1:All right, you kind of want to, we'll keep the nfl talk going here, you want to quarterback?
Speaker 2:us through these next couple of max, yeah, yeah. So the next, our next matchup is the number 13 seed from 2008, body of lies, starring russell crowe and leonardo dicapriorio, and the 20th seed, white Squall, from 1996, starring Jeff Bridges. I'm really torn on this one. I don't think either of them, either of these movies, are particularly. You know, they're not in my top 10 Ridley Ridley movies.
Speaker 2:I think Body of Lies is, unfortunately, just like another bad miss for me and Ridley and then White Squall is just a movie that I just could care less about. The less about the story and the characters really, um. So I I will defer uh to you guys and see where the the votes land so I actually really like both these movies.
Speaker 1:I really like body of lies as ridley's only entry into the post 9-11 cyber boom, counter-terrorism sub-genre of action movies, and I kind of love russell crowe as like the handler in this movie to leonardo's field agent character. A lot of really good action set pieces in this movie that I think are played out really well and well executed, and so I really like it for that sense Feels like it's almost more of a Tony Scott movie than a Ridley Scott movie, and I always like when these two kind of flip roles. It's not too often that Tony made a film that you could say, oh, that would almost play better as a Ridley movie. But Ridley does it a few times and I think this is one of those examples where this feels more like a Tony film as opposed to a Ridley movie. And then White Squall.
Speaker 1:I know I'm like I'm a little bit behind on the release of this film. I watched it for the first time and prep for this pod, but I'm I'm kind of like where was this movie in my childhood growing up? Like I know it was released in 96. So I missed the target demo, of course, there, but I can imagine that this was like a standby maybe not quite on that level of like a standby me or something, but like this for some people had to sort of be the like action adventure coming of age. You know, pg 13 movie that taught them kind of about friendship and how boys are supposed to behave with each other in their teen years, and I really like it for that. I really like Jeff Bridges and the role of this, this captain who, who is kind of the surrogate father for these, you know these, these young men who are kind of on on their own to figure out life, and it's what's the island for, you know misfit boys and Pinocchio or something's kind of what it feels like. It has some of that energy and so I don't know I, the establishing shots, I put that in my letterboxd review.
Speaker 1:Like you can tell, the edit isn't great on this movie and and I I wish that ridley was able to do more um on the open seas there, but a lot of it I do feel like still is shot using a real boat in the water and for 1996 still kind of holds up. So I was, I was pleasantly surprised and for it to end with like kind of a, you know, a heartbreaking courtroom scene at the end. I didn't expect that, so it threw a lot at me that I wasn't prepared for I'm. I'm totally on the fence between these two. So, marcus, looking forward to what you have to say, yeah, I um totally on the fence between these two.
Speaker 3:So, marcus, looking forward to what you have to say, yeah, I, um, so I saw body of lies, like probably when it came out, because I remember seeing it in theaters. Um, I, I didn't have a chance to revisit it for this, but I I would echo max's point and that it feels very much of a piece with that sort of post 9-11 uh cinema I would say um, kind of I'm trying to think of something else to even compare it to. But yeah, that kind of post 9-11 like cia drama, that kind of thing um didn't hasn't really stuck with me over the years. Um, uh, I did watch white squall for this and, and to me it's no contest, I think White Squall is like I don't think it's like a perfect movie, but I think it's a really fascinating movie Because there's just before I even get into this I can spoil things. I'm assuming it's not a big deal.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, the movie came out in 96, in 96, I mean, I just want to make sure the whole premise of the film is it's like dead poet society on a boat.
Speaker 3:But then, like he like kills all the boys at the school, which is just like it caught me so completely off guard because, like, for like two hours of run time, again, it is like dead poet society on a boat. And it's exactly what alex is saying, where it's like you know, all these young boys learning how to like, like be men and like, how to be good to each other and how to like learn respect and honor and all these kinds of things, and then, like it puts them to the test by putting them through a shipwreck and everyone dies and it just like it, completely caught me off guard and I think even the ending doesn't really I don't know that the ending really gives you a real resolution to it, because again it tries to do kind of the Dead Poets thing with Jeff Bridges at the end, but it feels so obtuse because the shipwreck is so horrifying to watch. It's like really graphic and you're watching like 18 year old boys like get sunk, get sunk into the bottom of the sea. It's like terrifying. That said, it's also like a miracle of like staging action and like, which is like to Max's point earlier, I ridley scott is like he's, he's so gifted at that and I think this is maybe the film, that that clicked in for me the most and that there's these incredible tableaus where, like, there's movement in all faces, in all parts of a stage and of a scene, and a shot will start, close on someone's face and then move out to a wide.
Speaker 3:I think about, as a director, how long it would take to stage every plane of action that has to be staged in that movie, and it must have taken hours. And you've got to imagine Ridley by that point, for him must have taken like hours. And you got to imagine Like Ridley, like, by that point For him it's probably old hat, so he's probably like, yeah, we'll knock it out in a couple In like what, two hours, that's fine. So I think for me White Squall is really impressive as like Certainly as just as a technical feat, as a skillful feat, and also I do think like it is really interesting that he does go in the dead poet's direction and he mostly pulls it off. I mean, this is the guy that made you know Alien.
Speaker 3:Like you wouldn't necessarily think he can make a dead poet's, but he does for the most part put me down for white squall white squall is the one I came in here with the most opinions on I'll give it a clean sweep as well, because, yeah, body of lies.
Speaker 2:You know it's so unfortunate because it's just kind of forgettable, especially when you talk it out and compare it to something like white squall yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:It is just weird that it has almost zero footprint and no cachet, considering that it's russell not too far removed from his prime and leo like in his prime. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean russell does robin hood two years later yeah, yeah, american gangsters right there as well, like it's, it's right there. Um, and gosh speaking of this is the one I've been dreading I'm dreading this.
Speaker 2:I'm oh man, this is yeah so, listen, this is the number five seed, the number five seed american gangster, going up against the number 28 seed, the counselor. Um, I listen, I re-watched the counselor. I owned the counselor.
Speaker 1:I had no idea. I owned directors cut. Directors cut okay, good on blu-ray.
Speaker 2:I threw it in the other night. Kaylee started watching with me. About 15 minutes in she was like she did the Spongebob meme. She just got up and was just like that's it for me.
Speaker 1:Was that before or after Penelope Cruz and Michael Fassbender explored each other's bodies Under the sheets?
Speaker 2:She was into that. She was like, oh, this is beautiful, look how pretty this is. And I will say that the one thing that the the counselor's first like 45 minutes are so like exposition heavy and and talk, talk, talk and like you it does. It does come out very slow, but as soon as that first beheading happens and I love that I get to say first beheading, I was going to say I love the first beheading With multiple beheadings.
Speaker 2:This movie actually fucking rocks and is really fun, and I think this especially because of the time it came out, in 2013, which was a year right after Tony Scott, tragically died. I think this is the movie that Ridley made for.
Speaker 2:Tony could have been. An amazing. Tony Scott movie should be dedicated to Tony. Like this this is his love letter to Tony. Like this this is his love letter to Tony. And so listen, I the counselor is good. I can't believe it's a 5.4. It is a good movie and you just have to get through that first 40 minutes and then it fucking rips. All that being said, american gangster is an epic, epic gangster film on the levels of a Scorsese gangster film, with Russell Crowe and Denzel Washington kind of in some of the top of their games going at each other. It is extremely long, it is extremely big, but I think it pulls it off. And, you know, I think it's also really cool that Idris Elba shows up for a hot minute in this movie before he really explodes and kind of becomes like a guy that Ridley will soon like return to in something like Prometheus. I love American Gangster, so my vote is for american gangster oh, man, uh, this is.
Speaker 3:This is really hard. Um, I I'll say that I I can't remember the order that I watched them in, but I know that that I watched a Ridley Scott double feature and it it ended at like midnight with the counselor. So I started the counselor at midnight and it finished at like two or three in the morning, which, if you ever want to watch the counselor, that's a great way to watch it.
Speaker 3:Especially if you're in Mexico hiding from the cartel yes, exactly, um, I I think to me this, this choice a really solidly crafted movie. It is a. It is a really well-made film that doesn't necessarily like reinvent the wheel, but like it. It's a great gangster film. It's a great denzel performance, russell Crowe's incredible in it. It's got all those kinds of gritty 70s, 80s America elements. It's just really really well made. You can see that in every single frame. But, that said, cameron Diaz fucks a car in the gun show.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying that's the reason you should watch the movie. I'm saying that, like to Max's point, if this is the movie he made for Tony Scott and he decided that's what the movie should have to honor my brother. I just think the counselor is such a bizarre movie, it's so, it's just so out there and I love, I love that. I could not really tell you what it's about at any point, except for like, don't fuck with the cartel. And and like, like it's almost like you know, just know what you're getting into. Cause I think, like at the start of the film, like that's what Javier Bardem says to him, like, like, be careful, you know what you're, make sure you know what you're getting into, and he tries to warn him, and then, like you know, michael Fassbender doesn't do that.
Speaker 2:Well, it's all about greed, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's all about greed this counselor wants more and more and more, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I think I really love I just if it comes down to a choice of craft versus taking a big swing. More often than not I'm going to go with the film that takes the big swing. But it's tough, it really. I say that and even as I said it, I'm like is that true? I mean, in this situation I'm going to go with the counselor and I'm going to go with my gut and we're going to ride for the counselor all the way to victory. It's going to take the number one spot.
Speaker 1:I can feel it so I think that these are both five star films in two completely different fashions. I think I think that what you could do with American gangster is you could show that to someone who is completely unfamiliar with Russell Crowe films, with Denzel Washington films, with Ridley Scott films, and you could say this is the best movie that any of them were ever involved in. Yeah, and it would be really hard for them not to believe you, because it is so expertly crafted and the director's cut, which I believe runs about 20 minutes longer, just gives you a little bit more, and with most Ridley Scott films, that little bit more makes all the difference. American Gangster and it comes out in 2007, so it's really, really tough, because that's you know, there will be blood and no country for old men and just a murderer's row of competition such a good year, absolutely insane year for me.
Speaker 1:If I'm just looking at ridley movies at face value, where he was at in his career, like obviously you can say, oh well, alien is one of the best movies ever made. He should have won best director for it. Yada, yada, yada. That's real easy to say. The movie that I think he should have won best director for is American Gangster and there's a couple of them, but I think he is so deserving for what he did in that movie. I think he is so deserving for what he did in that movie. I think that Denzel Washington could have won best actor. I think that Crow could have won best supporting. You could award them right now. It's such a year I'm doing it, I'm telling you, I'm looking at my letterbox right now. I have American Gangster as my 68th favorite film of all time and that's probably way too low. I love this movie so much.
Speaker 3:I return to it all the time, that being said, the Counselor.
Speaker 1:The Counselor is a five-star film for me because it is one of those and I think Marcus feels the same way, and there's dozens of us out there who also feel the same way it's a five-star film for us.
Speaker 1:For us where, like for me, cormac mccarthy, who writes the script, does such an amazing job of just dropping us into this world, and I love when a movie does that because, max, you're right, it is exposition heavy at the beginning, but only in the sense that we are listening to these characters talk about this situation that they are in, that we have no idea what it is.
Speaker 1:And so, even though you, you basically just get seen after seen for the entire runtime of conversations in different rooms with different people, until all of a sudden, cheetahs are running around in the middle of texas and like, fuck, yes, we got cheetahs running wild in texas, um, and so you, you just get dropped into this world of chaos and of control and the complete lack thereof control, and you want to talk about nihilism in a movie, just not giving a fuck whether or not you're happy at the end of it or not. That's the counselor, and I think that it ends with one of the most powerful scenes of any ridley scott film ever, where he gets the dvd. You don't even need to pop this thing in.
Speaker 1:You know what it is, you know what it is and he's having that conversation with like, with like an attorney for the, an advisor for the cartel. It's not even like a cartel boss or anything like that. And you just understand that this story that we just spent two hours on is so insignificant in the big picture of things. And it's the line that that man says to Michael Fassbender where he goes well, counselor, I have a busy day. I have to let you go. I have things to do, I might take a little nap later where it's just like you know what man like you're fucked and I'm. We're never going to have to talk to you again, see you again, think about you again. Like this is just what we saw is just as wild and twisted story. John Leguizamo his cameo too as like the guy who's just washing, um, you know, the septic tanks out or whatever, and he's just like. Yeah, here's another one. You know, at least in in western society, there was like and then and in the movies that we were getting around that time in the tv shows, especially like narcos, is huge. You have all these documentaries on the cartel and it's becoming a hot button issue in in politics and I think it's so interesting that this movie comes out is never really used as a reference point as far as like media, that that was, that was hot or that was trendy or anything like that. And again, I think it probably has to do a lot with the nihilism, the fact that it's not an easy watch that he but, but still it's. It kind of is if you can just buy into what these people are doing, because, for as outrageous as javier bardem's clothes are and cameron diaz is, um, you know her, her approach to life and how she's moving through it, her entire performance, it's so outrageous. And so you just, like, every single scene has an a-list movie star at the center of it, reading cormac mccarthy, like dialogue. That that is amazing. They're both five-star movies.
Speaker 1:This is, this is really hard, because I don't want to look ahead in the bracket and be like, oh, what's going to stand a better chance going forward and what do I really want to fight for? Because our next matchup is just as difficult for me and so it doesn't get any any easier here. I really hope people go back and check out the counselor if they haven't seen it, because go in with an open mind, go in understanding that, like, not everything needs to be spelled out for you and you don't need to know how somebody like the fast spender character got into the situation that he's in or why he needs more money. You just like when max was saying, like he's a greedy guy, and here's a story of how things go really, really wrong for him and all the other players involved.
Speaker 1:I love American Gangster. I think American Gangster is one of the best films of the 21st century. I honestly do. But the the counselor is such a fun movie that I think we just like gotta give a little bit of extra love to and like but. But that here's the thing, though.
Speaker 1:If I don't put American gangster through, like American gangster, I was a legit shot at winning this whole thing If it gets past the counselor, and so I don't want to knock it out this early because of that. I think it's got a really good in between. Obviously, there's nothing science fiction about it, but it does everything that Ridley does in all these different genres that he plays in, and it is his godfather, it is his goodfellas, it is on that level and it's a true story. The Frank character is so interesting I'm tempted to just like flip a coin. I think I should, counselor, I think I should say American gangster. I really don't know, but I love having you on the show, marcus. I don't want to disappoint you. I think at the end of the day, I got to go American gangster though all right, that's fair.
Speaker 3:I mean, I I'll say I'll say to that point, to the point of you choosing american gangster, I think american gangster is as good as gladiator and that I agree with you. I think, like it's, it's the one he probably should have. If not gladiator, it's's the one he probably should have. If not gladiator, it's certainly the one he probably should have like won for. But like, again, you look at the year that it was up up for all those Oscars, like that's a brutal year for the Oscars, like you understand why he didn't get it. But right, yeah, and and I think the counselor is, you know, I said my piece, I got to proclaim my love for how weird and bizarre that movie is and that's all that matters to me. I just want to make sure people know that the counselor is great and that they should see it and that people don't always have to talk like people when you watch movies. They can talk like Cormac McCarthy characters.
Speaker 1:It could not have a higher endorsement. Like I, I'm giving it a shining endorsement here. If you watch one movie coming off of this episode, let it be the counselor. Yeah, american gangster gets my vote.
Speaker 2:The counselor is really good, really really good, and much better than I remembered. American gangster will be moving forward. Here's another really tough matchup. Uh, the 12th seed is um, a beloved film in my, in my book. Uh, prometheus from 2012. The 21st seed is kind of weird that these two match up against each other Poetic honestly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, alien Covenant from 2017. I mean, so these are the two Alien films that Ridley comes back to after you know, alien comes out back in what 79? Prometheus is the first time he comes back to. Prometheus is the first time he comes back to the franchise and kind of almost like it's a hidden sequel. Right, you don't really know it's an Alien sequel while watching it until the Well, I guess you do kind of know throughout, but at the very end it is revealed that there is a xenomorph like creature that pops out of one of the engineers.
Speaker 2:I remember watching Prometheus in the theater and just being so blown away by it. It is beautiful to look at it's. I think, again, he has this really interesting fascination with grandiose like religious figures and religious stories and and and what humans are and like what is you know what is immortality, that he then somehow attaches to the alien franchise and and seamlessly in in my, in my opinion. Uh, I really, really love prometheus. It's one I, I, I return to all the time. Alien covenant, I think, is like one of the better alien sequels. Uh, I believe it's it. Alex, when we did the alien movie rankings, wasn't it like the four spot, the three spot, um?
Speaker 1:and at least for me personally, I have both prometheus and covenant in front of something like aliens because it's like aliens, and the reason why I did that is because I was riding for ridley on that episode, like I think that ridley's trilogy is just far more fascinating than turning the xenomorph into something that you would apply just like an action epic yeah um, yeah, and so, yeah, covenant is really, really interesting too.
Speaker 2:It's got this amazing like dual performance from michael fassbender as, uh, as two different androids, uh, also, like you know again, I think we talked about this extensively on the on that alien episode. You know, david may be like one of the greatest like villains right uh, created in, especially in the alien verse, but also maybe in sci-fi, and you get so much of him uh and so much evil david, uh, in alien covenant, which is really fun and and that, yeah, so it's really tough, I think, in the long run.
Speaker 3:I think also on that Alien episode.
Speaker 2:We ranked Prometheus higher than Covenant, so I'm going to stay consistent and I will vote for Covenant. Excuse me, I will vote for Prometheus Again, just one of my favorite movies from the 2010s.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I haven't seen Covenant. I've heard. It's interesting because I remember when it came out. Again, I feel like this is the arc with so many Ridley films where they come out and the immediate response is oh, this sucks, this is terrible, Yada, yada, yada. And when you know, a couple of years pass and all of a sudden people are like, oh, that one's actually pretty good and I feel like that would.
Speaker 1:I can't figure it. Sorry to interrupt, but I just I was just thinking this because I don't know why that is. He has so many movies like that, and whether it's the director's cut or just people becoming a little bit more in tune to what he was trying to do, it's happened like four or five times and what strikes me is so weird is that these are all movies that I'm in on from the jump and then when everyone else comes around to him, I'm like what didn't you like?
Speaker 3:the first time I've been here, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and I think I think that's kind of that's such an interesting arc within his career. Is that, like because again it does happen so frequently um, and I I don't, I think a lot of it is that, like he is just such a craftsman as a filmmaker. He's such a dedicated craftsman who, like, puts so much care and work and design into his films and like he knows how to tell a good story and he knows how to do all these things. But, like, when you're, when a film is first released, like you're, you're really just betting on like is it going to immediately appeal to an audience. And like, when you're, when a film is first released, like you're, you're really just betting on like is it going to immediately appeal to an audience. And, like you know, if a film isn't, like immediately commercial in the way that like gladiator is or and then instead is more, like a is instead is more like a blade runner, where like it's kind of a slow, like burn and it's there's not a ton of action and it's very philosophical and all this kind of stuff, like, then like I think it just takes people a longer time to find, find the films and like luckily, ridley like came, uh, came of age as a filmmaker at a time when home video was the thing, so that you know his films could be rediscovered and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:So, uh, all this to say, um, I haven't seen alien covenant, but I have seen prometheus, and prometheus was a formative movie for me. Um, it was that it was like it came out like shortly after I'd gotten out of high school and I saw it with a bunch of friends when I was working in a movie theater and I remember I don't handle body horror very well and that might've been the movie that brought that to my attention. Obviously, I remember you know the marketing where it's all like you know it's got that great shot of Michael Fassbender with, like, the little alien germ on his finger and he's like big things have small beginnings, it's like all that stuff. Um, maybe the thing I remember most about is the dame and lindelof of it all, because that's such a weird pairing of like two people that I would never think of as working together.
Speaker 3:Um, and if there's a critic that I was reading at the time that when that movie came out, they described that movie as being about what if you met God and God hated you. And I've never forgotten that, because I think that's such an interesting premise for a movie, because so much of that movie is them being like oh, we're finally going to meet our creator, and then the creator's like fuck you, what are you doing here? Leave me alone. So yeah, I think Prometheus is Prometheus has my vote. I like alien covenant. I'd like it if I saw it, I'm sure, but I don't know if I have as much of a connection to it as Prometheus.
Speaker 1:I mean as somebody who is a little squeamish, and I don't mean that, hopefully, with any offense.
Speaker 3:You saw the substance, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, covenants is straight up horror film, and so it might not be for you. Um, whereas Prometheus does have a lot more philosophy behind it. Um, questions about religion, of course, and what does it mean Um to be alive really, and to to believe in something greater than yourself, to have faith in something other than yourself, and so I love, I love, prometheus for all those ideas. I think that that's just one component that makes it extremely rewatchable. I also think that alien covenant is extremely rewatchable. These are probably two of my more heavily logged films on on letterboxd I. I certainly watch them every christmas. Prometheus is a great alternative christmas movie shout out to yourself decorating the tree. Um, that's a great I haven't thought about that, but you're not wrong yeah
Speaker 1:um, I, I I'm with max, you know. I think that when we did the, the alien rankings, we sang covenants praises. We're doing it again here right now. But this was just an unfortunate pairing where, um, you know, prometheus is. We wouldn't have covenant without prometheus.
Speaker 1:And that's not to say that there aren't incredible things like my favorite, I think my favorite 20 minute segment out of these two movies if you just watched them in a five hour cut comes from Covenant. Actually, it's when they land on the planet. There there's 20 to 30 minutes to just absolutely rip and it's some of the best stuff that Ridley's kind of ever done, in my opinion. But Prometheus, overall as as a film and you know you want to talk about him returning to unpack different ideas, different things he's thought about over the years, and to do it with someone, um, like damien, is so interesting, especially with what he was doing at the time back in um, you know, 2012 on to do like, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love the leftovers, I love so much of his work and so a lot of great stuff with Prometheus that I think can't be ignored here in this matchup. So, yeah, gets the clean sweep. It looks like 3-0.
Speaker 3:All right we got a couple.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the top half of the bracket. We have the bottom half of the bracket here, I think, has some some easier matchups that we maybe don't have to spend quite as much time on. And that starts here. Um, I think with with hannibal versus house of gucci.
Speaker 1:For me this is hannibal in a runaway. I mean not only because I'm a huge horror fan, but I think House of Gucci is just it's such a joke of a movie. Like I remember being so excited for this movie and I think, like almost in a laughing manner, where I'm just like I can't wait to see how outrageous this movie is. That doesn't mean that it is necessarily effective just because it is outrageous and it certainly is. Um, but hannibal is just like a really twisted fun movie. Um, that, once again, you wouldn't think is a ridley scott movie. Um, doesn't necessarily mean that it should have been a tony scott movie. I don't know if it should have been a Michael Mann movie. Obviously he had done Manhunter and had been in the the Lector verse already. But like just such an again such an odd movie for Ridley to be behind. And I think that you know four out of five people who have seen Hannibal probably don't know that it's a Ridley Scott movie, so I want to champion it for that as well.
Speaker 2:And so Hannibal gets my vote here. I'm a pigeon, you gotta let me fly. That movie is a clown show. I rewatched the first 40 minutes Until Jared Leto came up on it, came up on screen last night and I mean it is so fun to see all these people like try and do Italian accents and like just like the 80s glam and all that. However, I did find the film like. The movie looked actually kind of ugly because it's so desaturated, something I didn't really notice when we first saw it in theaters. But, um, but yeah, that movie is is a absolute clown show.
Speaker 2:Hannibal is really interesting too because it's almost, you know, it's ridley he does. He does kind of like do alien, right, like the xenomorph is a serial killer and hannibal is kind of like this. He's like this lurking xenomorph, right like in the, in the background of of these set pieces, and we're searching for him and and then, like you know, you turn a corner and all of a sudden you're hanging from the fucking rafters with your guts spilled out. Um, I I do wonder if, like a michael man would have would have done better with that, or if jonathan demi comes back and does does the actual sequel to hannibal. I also think losing jodie foster. You lose a lot with the uh starling character, um, but julian moore does an okay job. Her accent gets a gets a little funky there at moments she's still.
Speaker 2:She's still good in the film, though um, but yeah, I think, I think ultimately I I mean, I have to go with hannibal here as well, I think. Uh, marcus, how are you feeling?
Speaker 3:so I'm gonna to vote Hannibal. I've only seen House of Gucci To that point. I will say about House of Gucci I saw it in theaters when it came out and I remember just like at one point I got up and I just went and walked around in the lobby for a while. I've done that with two movies in my life. One was a Minions movie shout out Matt Rush and the other was House of Gucci.
Speaker 3:That said, um, I will say I agree with Max's point about it being a clown show, because I think, like that movie is Ridley Scott loves making movies about class and certainly about like buffoonish, buffoonish rich people. Um, and that movie is nothing if not about like cartoonishly buffoon, cartoonishly buffoonish rich people. Excuse me, I got that one. It's like palace intrigue. It's arguing over legacy. Um, I, it's like very much him doing probably what he thinks is a comedy and I don't. I don't know that. I find it terribly funny.
Speaker 3:There is a line I'm looking at my letterbox right now. There is a line that I quoted on my letterbox that said, I think like lady Gaga says someone's from Texas and Adam driver says oh, he's a mechanic, it's just dumb rich people, shit. And like that movie is very clearly like pointing fingers and laughing at rich people who are, you know, dumb in all these different ways. And again, I'm on board with Adam Driver doing anything on screen. I saw 65 in theaters and I would do it again. But I cannot under any circumstances say that house of gucci is a better movie, and if you guys or is a good movie, and if you guys think how hannibal is a good movie, we can go with hannibal well, it's interesting because I don't think hannibal actually ever achieves a level of of like good.
Speaker 1:I don't think that the movie is ultimately, I don't want to say good, but I also can't say great, because I don't know if it, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just I think both of these films house of Gucci and Hannibal never get to the point that they aspire to be like. They never become what they, what they ultimately wanted to be. I think that, yeah, I would agree. I think that people hoped that hannibal would be on the level of silence of the lambs, and now that's not to say that it would win best picture. However, uh, it just it. It didn't become what it could have been. And I think when you watch house of Gucci, you watch it during that first 30 minutes and you're like is this going to turn into something like more than just a bunch of almost like the asset? Well, it feels like I'm watching an SNL skit where everyone's just like in hair and makeup the whole time. And when you realize that it's, it's pretty disappointing because that is a very long film and so to sit there in that disappointment, I can see why you would just be cruising the lobby of an AMC at some point.
Speaker 2:Marcus just hasn't realized yet that Adam Driver may be the worst movie star we've ever had, and everything he touches stinks the worst movie star we've ever had and everything he touches stinks.
Speaker 3:You can take that opinion straight to hell.
Speaker 1:So, hannibal, moves on and then next we have Thelma and Louise from 1991, as the seventh seed versus Exodus, gods and Kings, christian bale vehicle, where I believe he plays moses. I saw this movie once a long time ago. Um, probably would have re-watched it if the matchup wasn't so lopsided here. Thelma and louise um, as I think you know, there's great films in this bracket. Of course, I could also say it's criminally underrated as just being the seventh seed. It's an amazing film this is. I don't think we have to spend any time on either of these two movies right now.
Speaker 3:I just want to say that one of these films is in the Criterion Collection and it's not Exodus Gods.
Speaker 2:Thelma and Louise gets it in a sweep and on to the next which is the last duel from 2021, and that is the 10th seed.
Speaker 1:It's going against the 23rd seed, 1492, colon conquest of paradise. This is ridley scott telling the christopher columbus story. Um, something that, a sentence that I would not be saying in 2024. No one is interested in telling the christopher columbus story. I don't think. Um, I think I misspoke earlier when I said the gladiator stands a chance to be maybe one of the best late period or the best late period Ridley Scott films. I think it's got its work cut out for it, because I quite like the last duel. I own the last duel on 4k. I think that's a really, really good movie. That that was again. Maybe it's already happening, maybe it's happening sooner than something like kingdom of heaven or blade runner, some of these other moves that have kind of been reclaimed. I think people are are realizing that we kind of did the last dual dirty there during the pandemic in 2021.
Speaker 1:A really solid film. It's in the style of a bunch of different movies that I really like. They kind of tell the the story the same. They retell the occurrence of a situation in three different ways through three different viewpoints. Much like something that much like what Kurosawa did in Rashomon, and I know that that's like high praise. I'm not saying that it's anywhere near Rashomon or anything like that. However, I just love that story structure 1492, there's blueprints.
Speaker 1:That was the most recent one that I rewatched. I finished it today here before we hopped on. Just put my thoughts down on Letterboxd the bones to a Ridley Scott epic are there. The skeleton is there, the production design, the sets, there's good costume, there's stuff to behold and to appreciate with that movie. But it's just, you know, and I, because it came out in 1992, I believe I don't want to hold the cultural impact of it against it too much, because different times, like I said, we wouldn't be making this movie now, but in 1992 I feel like the audience was there for it, but but still it. It leaves you with a little bit of the ick it just it. I don't know. It's no comparison though, really, versus the last duel.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I have, I do. I have not seen 1492. Um, I, I again, I kind of I'm of the mindset that I don't want to hold its cultural impact against it at the time. But there's never been, even not holding that against it. There's not. There hasn't been like a, uh, a push from the past to be like you. That's the ridley scott you to see. You know there's. I've never seen anything like that or really heard anything like that about it. Um, I know it does play into the moment where Gerard Depardieu was a big star, so maybe that's kind of interesting. But, um, I uh, I've not checked that one out. I did see the last duel in theaters and I very much agree. That gets my vote.
Speaker 3:That one, I think, was definitely done wrong at the at the box office. I think it came out at a strange time and again, I think it's going to get that classic Ridley arc of, like you know, at the time it was viewed a certain way and with time it's like grown in status. Um, I think it's such because it's a, it's a rashomon story which I'm all I'm in the bag for generally. Um, I love, I tend to love things like that. Um, I also love that it.
Speaker 3:It's a morality play, you know. I love that. It's dealing with a very tough topic and a it's having. It's confronting the audience with a very tough conversation to be had and it doesn't pull any punches. It makes you really sit down and sit with it and I think that's. I think that's one of Ridley Scott's great gifts as a filmmaker In addition to all of the you know, the theatrical blocking and all that kind of stuff is that he knows how to make you sit with a tough topic and that movie is a tough watch, but it's really really good and I would really like to revisit it because I think I'd probably love it even more now. Also, I just want to shout out it was also partially written by my girl, nicole Hollis Center, so another reason to love it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't even know 1492 Conquest of Paradise was a movie, so I also will be voting for the last duel. Fuck Christopher Columbus. The next matchup. Fuck Christopher Columbus, the next matchup is a hard one for me because I ride hard for our number. 19th seed from 1989.
Speaker 2:The Michael Douglas Andycia crime thriller, black rain. However, it is going up against the 14th seed from 2006, another russell crowe uh movie with ridley scott, and one that I watched for the first time and was just absolutely delighted by, and it's called a good year. Uh. I would like to hear what you guys think, uh, because again, I really love black rain. I think it's got great again. Great gritty, like crime thriller stuff mixed with some just like awesome 80s panace. But a good year, almost like. Looks like something. It's so interesting that he shot it, the way he shot it and the way that movie looks. It looks like it should be a like a body of lies thriller, but it's about this countryside in italy drinking wine, and it made me want summer. It made me want wine. It made me want cheese.
Speaker 1:It was very powerful during these dark days of our washington winter uh for me this conversation is going to be about black rain, because a good year for me is moving on and I hope to talk about it in the next round. Black rain's wild I think Max undersold it because not only is it Douglas and Garcia, but it's also them fighting the Yakuza, and that's that's legit. That's actually like a huge plot point in that film. A really, really fun movie. We've done an episode on it, believe it or not, in the past um on a movie swap, and so black rain definitely worth checking out. A good year. I have the dvd next to me here somewhere, I'd say, in the studio, with us every single time we podcast. This is another one where, like it's a banger, it's always been a banger, it's a certified classic um in my book, and so a good year moving on uh, so I'm gonna out myself here as having seen neither of them.
Speaker 3:I wanted to get to a good year because I know alex loves it so much, but, if I'm being honest, I came here to support my boy, alex. I'm just here to vote. A good year, man.
Speaker 1:I love it. I really I gotta do better for you. I feel bad about the council it's okay.
Speaker 3:I mean, you betrayed me on the councilor.
Speaker 1:I owe you two. Now I guess what I'm gonna do, and we'll get to this a little bit later. I'm 100% gifting you. We'll get to this a little bit later. I'm a hundred percent gifting you. Do not watch kingdom of heaven on Hulu. I'm gifting you the, the director's cut blu-ray for Christmas, and so I hope that'll make. That'll make it up. That'll make it up.
Speaker 3:I'm honored deeply.
Speaker 2:Our next matchup is the number six seed, black hawk down, from 2001, and the number 27 seed, which I thought this movie was like way higher, higher and like its regard from 1997, gi jane. I will admit I have never seen gi jane and I just I just couldn't fit it in this week. But Black Hawk Down, much like you know, I kind of think how we were talking about American Gangster. I think another example of where Ridley probably should have been recognized for this feat of filmmaking in Black Hawk Down. It is unbelievable what he's able to do in that movie, so my vote's going to go for that.
Speaker 1:A lot less competition too in 2001. I mean, you could say that Peter Jackson, with the Fellowship, the first of the Lord of the Rings films, he probably could have won as well. But I'm right there with you. I think that Black Hawk Down is a remarkable feature film for the longest time this comes out, when I'm 11. I remember watching it on HBO as soon as it hit, so I was probably 12. From 12 to 16 or 17, this is my favorite movie. This, this was my number one movie of all time. Um, the casting is incredible, just like a clinic insane a clinic. And how to cast absolutely. Um, remarkable stuff. When you look at who's like the 12th build person in this movie, it's people like Orlando Bloom and like it's remarkable, a Josh Hartnett classic. So you know, I love it for that.
Speaker 1:The thing about GI Jane I think that us growing up and really coming of age more in the 2000s and knowing Demi Moore, is this like this A-lister, this, this object of excellence, really when it came to like lead female performances in the eighties and nineties. You know a classic VHS cover her with the shaved head, and so I think that it it does have this like we hold it in this real like prominent um esteem of being something that was like transgressive and a little bit edgy and had a whole lot to say about the American military complex and women in the military and all these other things. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good movie. I think you can have a great message behind your movie and be saying a lot without it technically being, you know, like a solid film.
Speaker 1:This is one I watched on cable a bunch bits and pieces. It was always on the usa network. I remember um and just never really kind of, I never like got attached to it and and it's interesting that these two would go up against each other as well, because they come out in relatively close space there, within like a five-year window um, and I think black hawk down is just a million times more effective. It's obviously not trying to do or say the same things, but it's just such a good movie that even if gi gi jane was, you know, one or two times quote unquote better I hate to use that but kind of as a lack of a better term, I still don't think it's as good as Blackhawk Down.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I got to go with Blackhawk Down. Here Again, I haven't really seen GI Jane. I've heard it kind of referenced more as a curio within Scott's filmography. I think there's a couple of pieces that really interest me about it. One if you look at the timeline of his filmography, he makes GI Jane and then it makes gladiator than Hannibal and then Blackhawk down and like I cannot imagine making that series of films like back to back to back to back, especially because the gladiators, enormous, had Hannibal's enormous. Black hawk down is like I, I can't even wrap my mind around how you shoot that movie. It's so huge, um, and on top of that it's it's just got so many characters and so many locations and so many shots. Like how do you even shot list that? Um, it's just an incredible feat of filmmaking, which you could say about a lot of ridley scott films. Um, I, I also love that. It's you know it's a movie with a lot of guys.
Speaker 3:It's you know it's a lot of like a lot of actors that you've probably seen in things, or a lot of up-and-coming actors, and there's a lot of that fun stuff in there. Um, I like that it. It kind of feels like a little bit of a pretext to what nolan goes on to do. Like you, you get the sense that nolan saw that movie and was like, oh, I want to take like everything from this and just apply it to my work. Uh, whether it's the scope and the scale or how he shoots action, all that kind of stuff. That's really great. Um, I I will say that movie has the gnarliest surgery scene. That artery scene is, yes, like it's oh, my lord, and it goes on forever. It's the worst. Um, but yeah, black hawk Down is an incredible movie and it's visceral and it really is like a war film. Like I went into thinking like, oh, it's like some guy getting some guys out of a war zone. It's like a war film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does almost feel documentarian in that sense, like you're really there in Mogadishu what I will say, and there's there's going to be plenty more opportunities to highlight this. But you know, as gi jane's on the way out, I think this is the first time. It's probably criminal that we're mentioning this at the hour 37 mark of this pot or whatever it is. But ridley is for me, for all the blackh Downs that he makes, which are just a bunch of dudes doing guy things. He also is great at putting strong female leads in the center of his films. You know, like we've kind of fast-passed Thelma and Louise, but we'll be able to circle back and have the conversation and we haven't even gotten an alien in the iconography behind Ripley's character, this Gordon Weaver character in that film. So you know, another reason why I think GI Jane was was really highlighted and praised there the nineties was because of the strong female performance, the, the strong female protagonist, that that Demi Moore played in that movie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and just to kind of tag onto that too. I mean like even in something like the last duel, which is like you of tag onto that too, I mean like even in something like the last duel which is, like you know, it's a story that's explicitly about sexual assault, Like she's not like passive in that at all, she's very active in seeking her own justice and like it's.
Speaker 1:It's a whole other conversation, but, um, I would definitely agree with you on that all right, and so then our last matchup here of the first round is matchstick men just a incredibly sweet, fun, good movie from 2003. That's our 11th seed, versus the aforementioned napoleon. We've talked about napoleon a lot already in that film's struggles. That clocked in as the 22 seed. Uh, mash stickman, just uh, a really fun movie, a great uh, nicholas cage performance in that film. Um, we love a movie about a con man, and so mash stickman gets my vote here. I'll turn it over to you too, if there's any, if there's any differencing of opinions, but I don't think so max, I'm jumping in over you.
Speaker 3:This is where I re-litigate your terrible opinions on napoleon in that episode. Napoleon is good, napoleon is good, I think. I don't think it's like his best. I certainly wouldn't even put it in, like you know, like as a late period masterpiece. I think it's almost of a piece. I think it's the better version of House of Gucci in that it's mocking this buffoonish dude who thinks he's hot shit and all the while his wife's cheating on him at home and he's just a big idiot. I love movies about big dumb jerks and Napoleon is nothing if not a big dumb jerk. So I'm voting for Napoleon here. You guys were wrong on your episode. I'm chiming in. I got to say it I do.
Speaker 1:I do like that because I think that's important to understand that, like, not every, I don't think the intention of every ridley scott historical epic, whether it's fiction or non-fiction, is to try to make us fall in love with a character like maximus from gladiator. Like, sometimes, the intention is to highlight a historical figure that is very problematic and flawed and lean into those flaws.
Speaker 2:Um so I think that's a great point I have not seen the director's cut of napoleon, but I wonder, I wonder if napoleon could be like a robin hood or a kingdom of heaven, where, you know, there was just not enough time to tell the story in theaters, and so it makes me wonder that, maybe down the line, if Napoleon could become one of these classic Ridley movies that has a cult following and a turnaround, a turnaround, um, until that day, unfortunately, napoleon continues uh to to stink, uh, especially after getting something like the last duel, uh, you know, two years before, uh, which was a really good sword and sandal, you know epic period piece, uh, to then team up with walking phoenix and not only like again, like plot wise not really have continuity in there, but also like historically wrong, like there are you know how many videos on youtube there are of like a historian takes down ridley scott's napoleon because guess what?
Speaker 2:a canon could never, ever shoot the fucking pyramids like that I don't give a flying fuck what it could so not only are we, not only do we have Joaquin kind of phoning in a fucking performance, but we are teaching the children the wrong history. And for that, Ridley, I'm sorry but you have to be punished. I'm going with match stick men in this matchup, Just as Alex was saying. A delightful little caper.
Speaker 3:Terrible opinions, but I'll allow.
Speaker 1:Alright, so we are on to the official round of 16. Now we're going to take a quick break before we get to those matchups. We'll talk to you on the other side. All right, we are back and we are officially on to the round of 16. Here we get to introduce our four top seeded films and we begin with gladiator. This is another poetic matchup of sorts. Gladiator goes up against robin hood, the 17th seed.
Speaker 1:That advanced to ridley scott films, obviously, to ridley or, uh, to russell crowe films and to historical action epics, um, both kind of leaning more into lore, I would say, than traditional non-fiction. So, much to love about Robin Hood, as I mentioned earlier, this movie is the movie that introduced me to people like Oscar Isaac, lea Seydoux, like just, we've talked about this before. But the casting in some of these Ridley movies, when you go back and you look at them and you're like you know, this is almost like a great draft class for for an nba team or for an nfl team or something. You just look at all the talent, um, that is paired up with legends of of the silver screen, like you know, the late william hurt and max von seidel, and then you have crow and blanchette as as main marion and um as rob Robin Longstride here in this film. Mark Mark Strong is just awesome, as as the bad guy in this movie. Danny Houston's in the film.
Speaker 1:I really, really, really enjoy this movie. That being said, it's going against gladiator. I think that there's maybe an upset and gladiators future somewhere along the line in this bracket. However, it's not. It's not in this round for me.
Speaker 2:Uh yeah, I think you know gladiator does. Does Robin hood so much better than Robin hood, right? Robin hood is trying to do gladiator? Maybe, I guess is what I should say. Robin is trying to do gladiator. Maybe I guess is what I should say. Robin hood is trying to do gladiator. Again, it doesn't get to the highs of what gladiator is. Um so, it you know robin hood good movie. Fun to see russell and ridley again they. How many times? How many times have they worked together? Like it's got to be close to 10?
Speaker 1:uh and yeah, gladiator, just one of the best another thing about robin hood that I really appreciate is that it comes out right as game of thrones is coming on to this onto the scene there in 2010, and I think it does a lot of some of some of the like chamber aspect, throne room scenes that you get in that movie or in that series. I should say better, um, you even get some cross-pollination on the cast, like mark addy, who plays robert baratheon, is friar tuck in this movie and I just I love it for that, because, again, the lore and and whether you grew up with things like Robin Hood, men in Tights or just the Disney cartoon film, these different characters that you've already kind of heard about, and the taxing of the rich, and it was just so interesting to see Ridley take that and put his gritty historical action epic kind of seal on it, and so you know another one that it's off screen here, but the movie is represented here in the studio every time we record and I really like it. But yeah, for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I it's, I got to go Gladiator. I mean, gladiator is Gladiatoriator. Like what are you gonna say? Um, I I will say again, as someone you know who hasn't seen robin hood um, I, I think one of the joys of films like that and like black hawk down and things like that, are just that, you know, you, it's like you said, it's like a good draft class and that you get to see this this whole, uh, you get to see a whole wide swath of like actors and filmmakers as they're kind of coming into their own and, um, I think I mean you correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's kind of it may, it might have even kind of helped kick off the like mark strong as a villain kind of thing, because I know after that, his 2010s is him just playing a villain, basically.
Speaker 2:Kind of the same villain too. Yeah, kind of the same villain.
Speaker 3:He's a bald guy who's evil Like Jack Wyre. So yeah, I mean you gotta go Gladiator there, but I can certainly respect what Robin Hood's doing.
Speaker 2:Our next matchup is the number 8 seed From 1977, the Duelist, and going up against the number 9 seed, kingdom of Heaven Listen for me, kingdom of Heavens from 2005. The Duelist again was such an awesome discovery for this exercise and you know, as Marcus was saying, I kind of love the sentiment of like loving filmmakers, first movies.
Speaker 2:I think that's actually really that's a really cool perspective, uh, and and also like a I don't know, just like a, an interesting way to to like maybe re-examine some first movies, um, from people. Um, because for the longest time I thought alien was was ridley scott's first movie, uh. So again, the Duelist really cool. I believe I watched that on Tubi as well, I think. So another good Tubi watch you can do on there. But Kingdom of Heaven for me is just, again, it's one of those movies that just grows every time I watch it and it's stunning, it's just absolutely stunning, and some of them it's just it's gonna be, there's, there's gonna come a time when this kind of movie is just not not made Like with this many extras, with this many people, with this large scope, um, where you can feel and breathe and hear them breathe and hear them scream, and like you can just feel the physicality of this movie. Uh, so for me it's kingdom of heaven.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know, the thing about a bribe is that it doesn't take into effect until you receive it. So I gotta go do a list here. I mean, I think I'm sure King of Heaven is good and I'll find out someday soon hopefully. But again, I just think director's first films are always really fascinating to me for all the reasons I said earlier, and also I really like that the Duelists is. I like that the Duelists is a film about a guy determined to kill another guy who doesn't understand why the other guy wants to kill him toxic masculinity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like his pride is like lightly injured and he's like now I have to kill you and like I've like just on a just a uh, um kind of an absurdist level. I find that really funny, that like really the whole movie. He's just like why do you want to kill? I don't want to fight you, I have nothing against you, um, and it's this is a weird poll, but I guess it'll probably make sense. Like it kind of almost goes back to like the dark night where it's like why do you want to do this insane thing? There's no reason for you to want to keep doing this, um, and so I I always find that really fascinating, just as a film premise, um, so gotta be duelist for me yeah, we've.
Speaker 1:We've really regressed as a society. Uh, there's there's countless times where I wish that we could just handle problems that way, but not the world we live in, unfortunately, w W.
Speaker 2:Okay, the next matchup, our number four seed. First time we're talking about this movie from 2015, the martian up against upset, the, the cinderella of of round one the george mason, the 20th seed white squall from 1996.
Speaker 1:Listen, the Martian is the last time that Ridley realistically had a shot to win best director and any problem, and again I feel like a little bit of a broken record. He probably should have back then as well. This was, this was legitimately, I think, a great film in the moment. That was appreciated in the moment that. Has it? Hasn't it lost a step? You know, I don't really know if it's gained any more of a following. I think it is extremely rewatchable.
Speaker 1:The matt damon performance in it is great. I mean when he's cooking kind of that, that in that second hour after he's on mars and he's well, I so I guess within after the first hour of the film, once he's really there and he's growing the potatoes and everything's going um, you know, going well for him. Just a really enjoyable film again with an extremely deep cast. The Martian, however, for me just like doesn't really have any special place in my heart as a Ridley Scott vehicle and so, even though I love it for the recognition that it did get in the moment, I think that there's kind of a conversation to be had here between it and Cinderella White Squall um, I I'll say this about the martian I like the martian a lot.
Speaker 3:Um, I don't think there's there's nothing I dislike about the martian, but there's nothing I feel really passionate about with the martian. Um, you know, I I like matt damon, I like, uh, I love you know you get another one of those big, huge casts of like oh man, look at that person, they went on to do all these things. You got kristen wigg in there, you got donald glover in there, you got all these incredible like actors in this movie uh playing and they get like sizable roles and all that stuff's really fun. Um, just to throw it out here, because I I think it's one of my favorite kind of like like trends of like 2010 cinema is it also came out like in the middle of that pack of like post-gravity films where, like from like 2013 to like probably like 2017, you get like like in the fall, you get one like sad, or you get like one adult space film where you get like gravity and interstellar and you get uh, first man and ad astra and you get like this weird, like like, why? Why do you get all of these films like once a year for for like a decade? I, who knows? But I, I, it's just a fun trend, I love.
Speaker 3:Gravity won best picture. It's a copycat league, it's true. Uh wait, did it win best picture? Oh, my god, did it, I think.
Speaker 1:Hold on I'm, I'm checking, I'm I'm pretty sure won best picture and curon won best director oh my god, did it actually?
Speaker 3:it was nominated but lost to 12 years of slave uh, okay, but curon did win for director he, he won.
Speaker 3:I'm checking because now I'm sorry, now I'm on this my vote is for white squall and I'm gonna say why um coran is nominated for best director and wins. He does win for that. Yeah, um, yeah, I mean I, I like white squaw because, again, like I just think it's this, it's this interesting balance of like this, this kind of thing we're talking about with ridley, where he'll do these big terrifying movies of like scope and scale, and then he can also balance that with like this, like this, like small, intimate character stuff. And white squall is kind of an imperfect balance, but I have stronger feelings about it. Like it, it just latches onto me more than the Martian does.
Speaker 3:Where the Martian I'm like yeah that was fun, Like it feels like a good time at the movies where it's white skull. I'm like these young boys.
Speaker 2:They're growing up like you know, to me the Martian and I turned it on last night is as empty as the landscape on Mars, like it is.
Speaker 2:Rewatching it, I felt just like it was just this like matt damon comedy hour and I didn't, I don't know, I thought I, I think when I initially saw it I was like way more entranced with some of the uh mars cinematography. But watching again last night and then putting it up against something like white squall, where you're out on a boat, you're out on the ocean, you know you're, you're using real, real settings and real props and real vehicles, the martian, watching it last night, felt very synthetic. Um, and I don't know, I wasn't laughing as much as as I did when I first saw it, uh, years ago in in the theater, and I just wasn't, I just didn't, you know, I, I don't know, I just didn't be, I think, because it's matt damon, you're almost, it almost kind of takes some stakes out of it. Like, well, they're not gonna kill matt, going to kill Matt Damon, yeah, matt Damon's going to get back. So yeah, in this matchup I'm not the biggest Martian man around, so I'm going to, I'm leaning towards White Squall.
Speaker 1:If White Squall is the mid-major from, like, the big sky conference or whatever, then the martian is the overrated gonzaga that plays, that plays. Nobody that comes into the tournament with 23 wins. They got a five-star recruit like adam morrison. You know that's matt damon. Guess what? Not gonna do much in the pros, not gonna do much in this bracket? No, they got a five-star recruit like Adam Morrison. That's Matt Damon. Guess what? Not going to do much in the pros, not going to do much in this bracket. Here's the upset, here's the big upset. I think White Squall gets it.
Speaker 2:I'm with you, and you know what.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's going to leave too many people upset, like there's the martian. Just it's not that memorable, kind of like what we're saying yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a little hollow.
Speaker 2:It really is really fun in the moment when it came out. But uh, yeah, watching it again, I don't know. Okay, uh, another really tough, tough, tough match man. This like little what. The two matchups before in the first round and now what has happened here? Yeah, the number five seed American Gangster up against the number 12 seed Prometheus.
Speaker 1:Here's an example of like how overrated I think the Martian is. Prometheus and American Gangster could have been seeded above the Martian.
Speaker 2:Way high. Yeah, they would wipe the floor with the martian um and yeah, I think it's really hard. Right, like prometheus, you know, is this epic is? Is the epic like sci-fi, grand, grand philosophy, you know, philosophy filled film here and that. But then American Gangster, you know, I love what Marcus said during the first round, that it is a film of craft and it is. It is like the craft of filmmaking. On another level, and as much as I love Prometheus and love to return to prometheus, american gangster is the kind of film that, like again, you can, you can feel the fabrics that they're wearing, you can breathe, you can smell the diners they're in um, gangster is the kind of film I hope. I hope I make one day Right, like that kind of like lived in experience with a movie.
Speaker 2:So my vote's gone for American Gangster.
Speaker 1:American Gangster is ridiculously prestigious and I think that a movie in that genre and in the lineage of something like the godfather and for some folks they might think that I'm, you know, speaking out of pocket when I say that, but I I truly think that it is, you know, almost this generations it's the closest thing we've gotten to something like the godfather. It's really tough going against a movie that I love, like prometheus, but I think american gangster wins this one kind of kind of easily, just because of what you both have said. It's such a complete film down to and we don't get this anymore. I one of the reasons why I probably overinflated my appreciation for the film Twisters this past summer was because it had an original motion picture soundtrack.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, I was going to say that. I was going to say that.
Speaker 1:The original motion picture soundtrack for American Gangster.
Speaker 3:It's so good by Jay-Z, highlighted by Jay-Z's track Blue Magic.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, blue Magic's all-time banger for Jay-Z.
Speaker 3:Do you have any idea how many times I downloaded? I know offline why oh my god, your.
Speaker 1:Your movie is not complete without the original motion picture soundtrack yeah, I was.
Speaker 3:I was just gonna say that, yeah, because I I think like for me this is good, but it doesn't have a soundtrack. You know Jay-Z rapping about hell and crack.
Speaker 3:No, the soundtrack for American Gangster is perfect. It's so great. I owned the disc and I hid it from my religious parents. I was terrified of getting caught. But yeah, american Gangster, you can't argue with it. I think prometheus is good, but it's you. I think it's already starting from uneven footing. Um, it's flawed in a way that american gangster, um, really just isn't, I mean, american. I think what it lacks in originality more than it makes up for in craft, and I think Prometheus is just a little bit uneven, as much as I like the ideas it's toying with. Certainly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. Wow, very interesting how it's gone so far. Very interesting.
Speaker 1:All right, our next matchup, the number two seed, alien, which we have not mentioned yet, of course, going up against Hannibal. Listen, with all due respect to Hannibal and again another poetic pairing here, because these are Ridley's two most straightforward horror films, so it's fun to see him matched up here, as unfortunate as that may be, to to hannibal. I think we sung hannibal's praises for being a flawed but fun movie there from from the 2000s, especially within the horror genre, when a lot of ideas were kind of stale, um, before we really got to the elevated horror era of the 2010s and, um, you know just, the market was really saturated with with remakes from 70s and 80s classics, and I guess that this is part of that problem, although it's more of a sequel to a film from the 90s. All that being said, alien moves on here, um, and, and I'm assuming that it's going to be a clean sweep.
Speaker 2:I am also voting for Alien.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't have voted for Hannibal if I didn't have to previously.
Speaker 2:The next matchup is Thelma and Louise from 1991 against the Last Duel. This is torture 2021. Well, Marcus, how about you start us off?
Speaker 3:I mean I love both films so friggin' much. Man. This is hard because I love, I really love Thelma and Louise. I love both those performances. The ending is so iconic. It's just such a. I think it just comes down to your personal preference. I mean I like Thelma and Louise a lot, but if I'm gutting it out, I tend to prefer films that are like sad. I love like a sad morality play and like the Last Duel is a sad morality play.
Speaker 2:So I think Thelma and Louise is extremely sad. They drive off a cliff, yeah, but they're together. They die in a fiery crash.
Speaker 3:They die in a fiery crash, yeah, they die in a fiery crash after like after like, leading a bunch of cops on a chase. It's fun. Yeah, I, I think I gotta go last duel here. I I don't feel great about either. I don't. I don't feel great about kicking either of them out, but I'll go Last Duel and whatever happens happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's unfortunate when you do a bracket with a filmmaker that has just really good movies, like you know, when three quarters of their films are just really, really great movies. For me, you know, it does kind of come down to the, the taste of things. Right, and for me I'm kind of the opposite of marcus. I love a good like fun, energetic, you know, especially crime, thriller or caper or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2:Adventure, um, and thelma and louise was one that I had watched the for the first time, I think, back when we did the ridley draft, and then I re-watched it again for the poker hand and a movie that just like leaps off the screen, uh, for me and and really was, uh, such an awesome experience to watch. I'm so glad I hadn't seen it, you know, as a youngster, because I can appreciate it so much more now. But so, yeah, thelma and Louise Also, I think you know we've been talking about casting and like calling on people before they're huge. Of course, this is Brad Pitt's, if not his, first, big screen appearance. So, again, ridley, just having some foresight there, knowing that that guy was going to be gigantic, is the only other time he works with him.
Speaker 2:Is the counselor correct? I think I think so Really interesting. Would love to listen to their conversation of, like coming back on the counselor and being like how the hell are you.
Speaker 3:I haven't seen you since 91.
Speaker 2:Um crazy but uh, but yeah. So uh, for me it's Thelma and Louise. Uh, uh, going forward.
Speaker 1:I do think I'm going to go Thelma and Louise going forward.
Speaker 1:I do think I'm going to go Thelma and Louise here as well. I don't want to do it just for the sentimentality of it. However, though because, you know, a few times we've said that, oh, this is an outlier in Ridley's career or this is an outlier he actually has got a pretty good, a pretty good read on how to make one of these, these fun, sentimental, heart heartwarming type features, and so to say that, I think, would be kind of doing it a little bit of disservice, but I do think it's probably the best version of him making a movie like that. Yeah, is Thelma and Louise, and although I agree with everything that Marcus has said about the Last Duel and I too really appreciate it, a lot of that stuff we see in some of his other work done really well, if not better, if not better. So, in this matchup in particular, I think Thelma and Louise needs to go forward because it's it's a, it's a shining example of something that he's capable of doing, and and maybe to to the highest degree.
Speaker 3:I think tonally it's the better version of the Martian. I think that's, I think that's maybe the comp there, that's, that's, that's a great call.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, maybe the the comp there. That's, that's, that's a great call. Yeah, all right. So now we have the number three seed, blade runner, which we've got to bring up but that we've referenced, and it is going against the number 14 seed. A good year, um. Blade runner is just one of the best movies ever made. So, as much as it hurts me to to have to say goodbye to a good year, another one where people I urge you search it out there's no blu-ray release of this film. It's really hard to find on physical Um. You kind of had to have been a weirdo like me in 2006 and got the DVD but it's out there.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can stream it, um, look it up on, just watch. It's a really fun movie that that. That, max, I do agree with you. Especially this stuff in london, um, does feel a little bit too, too glossy. It feels like it's trying to be an action movie. But when you, when you do get out to the countryside, listen it.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that it that it's anything like you know some one of these French films from the new wave in the sixties, or Luca Guadagnino doing something like call me by your name. But I'll be damned if I don't have the same kind of feels leaving a good year. Then I do call me by your name, like it, just. It does have such a romantic feel to it where you want to be at a big villa, you want to throw your cell phone in the ocean, you want to just like detach from technology and society a little bit and eat some good food, drink some wine, fall in love, play some tennis, like get to know your neighbors. It's just, it's such a warm film. I, I love a good year, so so much, but it loses to blade runner uh, I'm voting for a good year here I again.
Speaker 2:I was pretty blown away by this film and the warmth that comes off the TV screen while watching it is something special and you know, I guess I might be outed now. But like Blade Runner is good, I love Blade Runner 2049, but Blade Runner is good. It is good. I love Blade Runner 2049 a lot. Blade Runner is good. I don't know if it's one of Ridley's. I don't know if I would put it in the top four, not that a Goodyear is in the top four either but I'm going to vote for Goodyear.
Speaker 3:This is insane.
Speaker 1:Standing on business Max Walsberg.
Speaker 3:I just want to point out that I'm going to help Alex perform the killing blow on a film he loves Blade Runner. It's not I re-watched it for this, um, and I'm not a huge sci-fi guy, um, I'm definitely not a noir guy, uh, but that film is, it's just a masterpiece on every single level. Um, I, I don't, yeah, and again, I, I try. And something I'll try and do sometimes is I'll try and picture, you know, where someone was in their career where they made something like this or where they would have like made like a film, uh, at that time, I guess, and you look at like what he had made at that point and like it was nothing like this. I mean, he, I think he'd maybe directed legend or I'm no, not even this is his third.
Speaker 1:This is his third film. This follows alien that's nuts.
Speaker 3:I like can't, I can't even imagine you go duelist alien yeah, duelist alien, then blade runner like that's just an insane lineup. Blade Runner is just such a. Again, it's just a miracle of craft. It's handmade but it's futuristic, but it's a noir, but it's all these different things and it's got these incredible performances in it. There's nothing I can say about Blade Runner that hasn't already been set. Um, and I was really I don't want to say surprised when I revisited it. I was surprised how much I liked it, because in theory it's a bunch of things that I don't love, um, and all of them just kind of merge perfectly. Also, the score is incredible A lot of sci-fi saxophone, which always on board with that.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the work, Max Next is the number six seed, blackhawk down from 2001 against the number six seed blackhawk down from 2001 against the number 11 seat matchstick men. For me this is pretty easy. It's blackhawk down, um, and then you know, I I think we're a big conversation about that film can will be happening next round. Uh, matchstick Men again very fun, kind of like Thelma and Louise a little bit in that vein, right, but I think Thelma and Louise is a superior version of that, and as fun as Matchstick Men is, black Hawk Down is just. It's again an incredible feat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, black Hawk, get to my vote yeah same clean, sweet alright.
Speaker 2:White Squall has made it to the Elite 8.
Speaker 3:I love that. I love it.
Speaker 1:Sometimes this is just how the bracket plays out in White Squall. They had a path here.
Speaker 2:They did.
Speaker 1:They definitely did.
Speaker 3:You could even say it's a path to victory. Some of us might say that Some may say.
Speaker 1:Some may say that about our number nine film because, looking here at the first matchup in the round of eight in the elite eight, we have Gladiator, which moved on after its pretty convincing win over Robin Hood, and now you have Kingdom of Heaven, who has beat Legend and the duelist to get here Not the stiffest of competition, but still had to fight a little bit. This is a real conversation to have here. Now I have to expand more than just saying W, even though I I will say I'm still going to be voting for a kingdom of heaven in this matchup. This, out of all the Ridley Scott films and I've looked on my letterbox top 100. I have a few rated higher than this. Actually, I have a few rated higher than this. Actually, there's only one rated higher than this. But this is like.
Speaker 1:This is my Ridley Scott movie. This came out when I was 16. Remember seeing it in theater, falling in love immediately with the epic scale of it, you know, owning it on DVD, rewatching it, then getting the Blu-ray, then being able to watch the director's cut, all the special features, that siege of Jerusalem that I think you were talking about earlier, max, the amount of extras and the fact that Ridley and the production team, they went out there and they built a city, I think they went out and did it in Africa and they rebuilt Jerusalem and filmed the whole thing, whole thing in in a practical fashion. Just incredible stuff. Um, my first introduction to eva green, which, my goodness, so formidable. Um, and again, the cast, which is so, so deep. Liam Neeson's incredible in this movie for as long as he's on screen. Edward Norton, as the Leopard King in an uncredited role. He is incredible in this movie.
Speaker 1:Kingdom of Heaven is one of my all-time favorite movies. Gladiator, I think, has the respect as being, you know, kind of one of these all-time greats that is talked about as a best pitcher winner and, as you know, it's our number one seed here in the film, obviously his most critically acclaimed film. However, I wouldn't be true to myself if I didn't vote Kingdom of Heaven in this film. So my boy Bailey and Orlando Bloom. This is in the middle of the Orlando Bloom hot streak, where three Lord of the Rings movies, three Pirates of the Caribbean movies he comes out and he does this. He's the biggest movie star in the world in my opinion at the time. Just remarkable stuff from my guy. I love Kingdom of Heaven.
Speaker 3:I'll go next. I'll throw on my hat for Gliator. Uh, I, I've seen gladiator. I like gladiator. I don't think it's again. I I wouldn't put it above some other ridley scotts but as someone who, uh, has not seen kingdom of heaven yet, I'm gonna go for gladiator, but I feel like it's not going to help its cause very much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, call me a Christian radical, but I have been converted to fight for these are your crusades you're going to have to edit.
Speaker 3:So much of my howling out uh, no, kingdom of heaven.
Speaker 2:I, I've been saying it, the, this whole bracket, the, the amount of people and and coordination and staging that takes place on screen. And you know, I will give napoleon some credit. There was a little bit of that in napoleon, a little bit but, in kingdom of heaven. It is on steroids and it is. It's insane. It's absolutely insane. You know, I I used to think like something like troy was better than this movie.
Speaker 1:But Wolfgang does so much computer-generated stuff in Troy so much and Troy looks like a cartoon compared to this.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Kingdom of Heaven, Liam Neeson not in the film for a long time, but a real good time and again a beheading that we love to see he loves chopping off heads so, yeah, I'm going with Kingdom of Heaven.
Speaker 2:Gladiator, one of the first rated R movies I ever got to see, very, it won a lot of awards. Uh, it's getting a legacy sequel. It, you know it did. It gave us the thumbs up, thumbs down, you know, kind of shake it in the middle gesture for a while. Um, but you know, I, just, I, I don't know, it's something about gladiator, I think, ages oddly, as, especially with the pacing of that film and uh, and even though kingdom of heaven might be considered more of a slow burn, I, I just think it's, I think it's just a much grander, expansive film.
Speaker 3:I, I'm going with kingdom of heaven I I do want to tack on that Gladiator did also give us a bunch of great jokes on the Sopranos, because there's that one season where I think it was the season that the Gladiator had come out and one of the characters in the show loves Gladiator and all the guys are like fuck this guy, we have to kill him.
Speaker 2:Are you not entertained? Will live on forever, definitely it's so definitely so good, or at least until you know. This weekend when they do, they say it again in gladiator 2 and it, oh you know they're gonna entertained. Are they going to Entertained? Aren't you they're going to do something. Stupid Is that Yoda, yeah Kingdom of Heaven, upsets the number one seed in the standings or in the bracket and we'll be moving on to the semifinals. Here we are again White Squall Cinderella going up against American Gangster. I can see Alex shielding his face.
Speaker 3:Alex, you want to start us off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'll be the first one here to knock a wheel off of Cinderella's carriage. American Gangster just outclasses white squall and everything other than like being being a coming of age story, I guess. But if, if, if, white squall teaches you how to become, you know, kind of like how to it has that coming of age feel to. It teaches you how to become a young man, um, so watching it, um, you know it, it, even in retrospect, having not grown up with it, I I can still feel a lot of the sentimentality there behind it. But like american gangster and frank lucas, like I feel like watching the Frank character is like listening to a Mike Tomlin press conference and I'm just like that's the kind of man that I want to be. American Gangster gets my vote here.
Speaker 3:That's the third Steelers reference this episode.
Speaker 2:Should have taken the over, marcus, I'm going to start doing shots.
Speaker 3:Every time you reference Steelers. I'm going to knock the other wheel off Cinderella, I'll go. American Gangster I really love White Squall and I think, max, everything you talk about with Kingdom of Heaven and like the staging and everything, I think I get that out of White Squall. I haven't even mentioned that like I absolutely hate shipwreck cinema, like it's worse than any other genre. For me is like anything where people are drowning in a shipwreck and that it's it's worse than any other genre for me is like anything where people are drowning in a shipwreck and that movie has a lot of that.
Speaker 3:Uh can't do it, um, but I I think american gangster is just a better made film. It's more, it's just more even-handed. It's it's got everything that ridley scott does well, um, just like it's deeper and it's more well even handed. It's it's got everything that Ridley Scott does well, um, just like it's deeper and it's more well crafted and again, it's just a better made film. I think, uh, there's a lot of pieces to white squall that I really like, uh, but I think it's just it's not quite on the level of something as, uh, like an American gangster.
Speaker 2:Uh yeah, cinderella ends here. American gangster Uh, one of the best movies on this on this bracket.
Speaker 1:Uh, we'll sweep the, the stuff about white squall that I want to give one final shout out to that. That doesn't necessarily involve the shipwreck stuff, um, but that is in the beginning, when they are in the caribbean and they're stopping at these different port towns, and I think that that's a lot of the, the timing and the blocking and the staging that you're talking about, marcus, where, when I watched it again, uh, just his command, ridley's command of the scene and and the way that everyone, all these extras are moving around and they're in public markets and they're in the street and I'm again I, I hear you, I'm like the staging of this and and so early in his career, and that's when, you know, I think I put my letterboxd review. Maybe I said it actually for someone to watch over me. But I feel the same way about, um, white squall.
Speaker 1:We're like I just miss when movies looked like that, yeah, where they. It just has such that it's it's a vintage film stock, that that kind of grainy but still, you know, clearly better camera technology than we had in the 70s and 80s and so things look good while still looking, you know, like they're still not high def and and real fancy looking yet, um, so I love that about. About a movie like white squall yeah for sure, also to shipwreck cinema. Just had two students tell me that they watched titanic for the first time over the weekend. So I love when I hear young people still returning to the classics and and finding themselves, um, you know, and in many different ways, through watching a film like titanic. Those are some very interesting conversations that I had today, yeah there's, there's that.
Speaker 3:There's that terrible shot in titanic when they, when everyone's panicking and the boat is sinking, they fire a flare into the air and like the ship looks and it's like and there's no one around for miles. And I remember watching it for the first time with a bunch of friends during the pandemic and I was just like what the fuck? So I really uh, titanic is my nightmare. That's like the peak of the nightmare. But you know there's a range. Don't, don't invite me on your Shipwreck Cinema episode.
Speaker 2:That's a great. That's a great little subgenre we need to do Life of Pi.
Speaker 3:Don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Our next matchup is the number two seed Alien from 1979 going up against the number two seed Alien from 1979, going up against the number seven seed Thelma and Louise. Who wants to start?
Speaker 1:us off. Well, it's interesting that out of the top four films that sci-fi really at least based off of our qualifiers here on IMDb and using their rating system the Ridley Scott sci fi stuff appears to be the cream that rises sort of to the crop here, so to speak, because you know we've already eliminated the Martian, but now you have Alien in the two seeds still in the tourney, and Blade Runner, the three seeds still in the tourney two seeds still in the tourney and blade runner, the three seeds still in the tourney. Gladiators been eliminated as the top sort of sword and shield historical Epic that I think people associate with Ridley. So now we're in this interesting position. Where are we going to start thinking about? Like, what best you know, does the winner of this bracket need to best embody what people think of when they think of Ridley Scotters? It's just going to come down to personal taste. Um, because I think that there's. I don't really think there's a wrong answer to that question. I think that they can be both at the same time. It's kind of a yes and situation and so like, when I look at what's going to happen here, going forward in a potential matchup possibly between Blade Runner and and Alien.
Speaker 1:I think that for me personally and this is no slight against Thelma and Louise we've been singing Thelma and Louise's praises here for a while now. Um, just just a remarkable movie, and another one that maybe I think you know. The generation above us, they might understand that that's a Ridley Scott movie because it was such a big deal when it came out that Ridley's name was heavily attached to, so they remember it. As opposed to something you know, like when we talked about Hannibal and how people might not understand it, that's a Ridley Scott movie as well. I think Thelma and Louise has that reputation for being a Scott film. The generation under us do they care about something like Thelma and Louise? I don't know really.
Speaker 1:It's great to see that Criterion reissued it here within the last year. I think don't know really. It's great to see that criterion reissued it here within the last year. I think that does a lot for um, you know the letterboxd community a lot for people who so collect physical media. The fact that there's a 4k restoration in that movie now. But I mean we're talking about alien, a film that plays year-round still to this day at repertory screenings. It has just like such a it's not even a cult status anymore, it's just it has a reputation as being one of, if not the best sci-fi movies of all time, one of the best overall American films of all time. American production. So Alien gets my vote. I feel bad for Thelma and Louise, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a bummer. I think that Thelma and Louiseise falls to, uh, to this matchup, because thelma and louise, you know, who knows, if it was somewhere else in the bracket how far it would have gone. But I mean, alien is, yeah, it's the number, it's the 10th, it's the 10th, it's my 10th favorite movie of my top 100. Alien is one of the greatest films that we, I think, have seen. It invents science fiction horror. You know there's not really a sci-fi horror to point to before that film and you know, it'sley scott's second film. It's, it's amazing that he, he did this as his second film and it created such an aesthetic too for our, our science fiction genre. Uh, you know the padding on the walls, walls in the beginning there, when you're floating around looking at the ship, like that's just and just the way the ship is, how dirty it is and wet and stuff like that Dark, all very influential. So I'm going with Alien.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 13. I mean, you know, alien to alien and certainly thumb and louise is an incredible film in its own right, um, but I think there's there's too much attached to alien because of you know what alien is and obviously what it spawned and everything that's grown out of it, um, good and bad, you know. Um. And yeah, just to second max's point there, I mean the aesthetic of the film is so remarkable and you know certainly the fact that again it is. It is kind of taking that classic ridley scott like low status protagonist, you know, a bunch of like grunts on a ship and like like focusing on their story, not like even in, like, uh, even in like situations like gladiator, like he's never focusing on like the rich or it's never told from that perspective. It's always about low status character and how they either survive or how they're making it through and that kind of thing. And to take that element and place it in a sci-fi setting was new. So yeah, I mean you got to go with Alien, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, alien, we'll move on there, sweeping Thelma and louise, uh. Next is blade runner uh, the third seed. Uh, going up against black hawk.
Speaker 1:Down, uh, the number six seed I mean, I could tell you half of the guys names in Black Hawk Down and I'm not talking about the actors, but I'm talking about, like Blackburn and Twombly and all the boys. And again, for as much as I really, really like Blade Runner and it's not just a legacy thing for that film where I'm appreciating it from afar for everything that it's done I do truly, really really like that movie, but, like I said earlier, Black Hawk Down at a time was my favorite movie at a time when I was really falling in love with with cinema, and so I think I just you know, if we were doing this podcast as 50 year olds or a 60 year olds and we were, and we grew up with Blade Runner and had that film have an impact on our childhood the way that, like something like Black Hawk Down did for me when I was a teenager. Um, I would be cashing a vote for for Blade Runner here right now. But even as somebody who's gone back and appreciated it and loved what has happened to the franchise since, you know, I'm a huge fan of 2049 as well and I think that, Ridley, this movie is in conversation with a film like alien because of the Weyland corporation and his idea and being so ahead of the game with artificial intelligence and everything else.
Speaker 1:I love it for that. But again, Black Hawk Down is, I think, such an achievement in modern filmmaking and nonfiction, even though obviously it's not a documentary but like a nonfiction storytelling, and again just the casting and the overall feel markets. I love what you said about like this is a war film. Like there are so many movies that I think like there's action movies about wars, this is a war film, and so Black Hawk Down gets my vote here in this matchup.
Speaker 3:I, I, yeah, yeah, I understand that I think I just I lean more towards Blade Runner. I really I go in for the kind of philosophy of it, certainly the noir vibe of it. If not, I don't always end up loving the noir vibe of it. If not, I don't always end up loving the noir. Um, yeah, and I think, I think it takes a lot of the things that he does so well on alien and perfects them. You know, it takes the effects, it takes the kind of dirty, worn-in aesthetic.
Speaker 3:Um, I love that like the future doesn't feel all that futuristic. It feels like it feels like people just kept living and then technology got better but like nothing really got better for anyone. I think that's such that's so interesting and I think it balances elements of horror very well. Um, compared to I think it balances. It balances elements of horror really well with, you know, the kind of noir elements and that kind of thing. Um, and again, I just, you know you, how do you argue against that? Tears in the rain speech? You know that's, even knowing that it was coming this time around, it's still just like. It's just an incredible thing to see. Um, and the chase sequence that precedes it is incredible. Um, it's just like two hours of like the most incredible film. Um, so I, I, I, really, I really I gotta give it to blade runner here.
Speaker 2:Um, max, you got a tough choice yeah, I do not envy you love more oh, man, uh, I can tell you which movie I love more. Um, and yeah, listen what? What is incredible to me about black hawk down is that what's different about it as a war movie? Like it's not. You know, a lot of people compare it to something like save private ryan. Where saving private ryan? Like they take the beach and then they move and then and then we're at. You know, then we're fighting people at the radio tower, then we move, and then we're at the end town and we move black hawk down. Once you get on that Blackhawk, there's no stopping. And the editing which won an Oscar that year.
Speaker 2:Sound and editing Yep Sound and editing both won and somehow this movie did not win for Best Picture. You know, alex and I we always talk about how whenever editing, whichever way editing goes, usually increases the win chances of best picture for that film. I think it is kind of a crime that this movie wasn't recognized at the Oscars. It is a wild ride and, like I said, once you get onto the Blackhawk is it's, it's non-stop, and I think I think that intense, just kinetic, just insane urban warfare is really something to behold and and something to do really hard. It'd be really hard to shoot a, it'd be really hard to edit together. Uh, you also got Hans Zimmer in here, you know, playing around with instruments, doing the score and practicing for his eventual dune. Uh, scores with with some crazy sounds out there in the desert.
Speaker 2:Um, I, I and I know Blade Runner is extremely important and it's been, you know, super influential over the years and creates again. He creates sci-fi, horror and then sci-fi like neo-noir, right Kind of wild. That Ridley Scott was able to do that within a span of, you know, five years. He is, he is a really really special filmmaker and those early movies are really really amazing. For, for my money, black Hawk Down is, I think, the the more entertaining and the more. The more fun, the more and the more impressive on a technical level.
Speaker 3:So I'm voting for Blackhawk, yeah, and I mean certainly to that point I said it earlier and I'll say it again now I mean I can picture how you shoot Blade Runner, but I cannot imagine how you shoot Black Hawk Down. Like I cannot begin to wrap my mind around that, um, and I think to me, that's that's I still. I still lean towards Blade Runner because I like it more, but that's what that's kind of the separation there is. It's a director at two very different stages in their career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1:Woo, All right, All right. Well, looking back at what we said at the beginning, only one of the top seeds has made it through here to the final four. That would be Alien, which we will get to in a minute. Our first matchup in this semifinal is Kingdom of Heaven going against American gangster. And now this is truly like trying to pick my favorite student, my favorite whatever, like this. I can't do this. I. This is so hard. Um, looking, I I'm just going to defer to the data here and looking at my Letterboxd top 100, I have Kingdom of Heaven above American Gangster. So for me, it's Kingdom of Heaven here and I just, if I start talking more about it, I'm going to just run circles around myself. I got to just let go. Now, Kingdom of Heaven gets my vote.
Speaker 2:So Kingdom of Heaven has been on an awesome run and I've constantly talked about you know the visual grandeur, the production design, the epic scale of this film and it is really really impressive and, like you know, I think it's leagues above Gladiator. Obviously, I think it's better than any of his other sandal and swords. However, I think American Gangster does that grandeur, that huge production design, but then also has tighter editing, stronger performances and a little bit more of a cohesive story. And for my money, the 1970s crime gritty drama is going to take the cake here because it's just a little bit tighter. It's a little bit, just a little bit tighter. It's a little, you know, it's a little bit.
Speaker 3:Uh, more streamlined and denzel and russell are just fantastic I just want to say I mean, we're out here talking about swords and sandals, movies we should be talking about. There will be blood, because alex is out here abandoning his boy I'm not the.
Speaker 1:I mean we're on zoom right now. Obviously baileon I. I named myself after orlando coming into this and so I'm not, I'm not abandoning, I'm, I'm going down with my guy here.
Speaker 3:Uh, I, yeah, I mean I gotta go american gangster here, man, I, I just again, it's just a, it's a marvel of craft, it's a. Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I feel like I've kind of listen, I'm I'm fine with this decision. I I'll sleep. I'll sleep good tonight, knowing I I went down with the ship here um the fall of christianity is is there a mike tomlin quote about that?
Speaker 1:we do not concern ourselves with things of that nature. American Gangster onto the finals. I can't say I'm upset about it, not in the least bit. And then it'll be going up against the winner of Alien vs Black Hawk Down. Now it not, not in the least bit. Um, and then it'll be going up against the winner of alien versus blackhawk down. Now this is hard because I don't want, I'm not trying to look ahead to the championship here. Um, just taking alien versus blackhawk down at face value.
Speaker 1:I think that in it's a very similar matchup, honestly, for, for me personally, black Hawk Down and Blade Runner, what it just went through in the previous round. However, the relationship that I don't have with Blade Runner, I certainly do with Alien. Whereas Alien was so formidable the first time I saw it and I appreciated everything that occurred during the production of that film, the its place in pop culture, and I just wanted more and more and more and more and more. I wanted to immediately dive into the sequels. I wanted to see it the first chance I had on the big screen after seeing it at home for the first time. The xenomorphomorph, such an iconic character, um, and so for everything that that I don't attach to to Blade Runner and the Weyland Corporation.
Speaker 1:As far as like making the androids and and Deckard and the Harrison Ford character and the arc and I, you know all of that stuff. I, I with Alien, I'm in on Alien, but then I saw Black Hawk Down as like it's that, it's Mystic River, it's Training Day, it's all those movies there at the beginning of the 2000s and that was my, that's my pack, that is that's true, alex core. As far as like falling in love with these movies in the moment as they were released, and like the reason why I'm still doing this podcast now and obsessing over movies today is because of Blackhawk Down and a handful of other movies. Me, I think, is my, it's my pick, but it's not necessarily, I think, what should win a Ridley Scott bracket, and so I'm I'm still struggling with that a little bit. Don't put my vote down yet, but that's just where I'm leaning.
Speaker 3:Uh, I can, I can hop in here, max, you can take some time and think I mean I gotta, I gotta go. I gotta go in here, max, you can take some time and think I mean I gotta, I gotta go alien here. I mean, again, it's really everything I like in Ridley Scott's work. I mean, again, it's dirty, working class people like trying to survive, and you got the mythology of it all. It's dirty, working class people like trying to survive and he got.
Speaker 3:He got the mythology of it at all, which I think like he's so good at kind of seeding throughout his work and all these different ways, whether it's in kind of a one-off, like Black Hawk, black Hawk down, or whether it's in a larger franchise like Alien. Yeah, I think, I just I think I lean towards Alien, alien. I don't really have. I don't really have any other reason other than I think it's fucking great and I would go see it. If I found out that there was a, if I found out that both these movies were screening tomorrow and I had to choose which one I was going to go see, I would go see Alien before I went and saw Black Hawk Down.
Speaker 2:God, I would love to see Black Hawk Down in a theater. That'd be so sick.
Speaker 3:I would love to see it if I had time to prepare myself. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh, this. I mean I think this is very similar to the matchup we just had where Black Hawk Down. Again, I've been saying all night the technical aspects of that movie. It's just kind of a miracle that what you're watching is on screen With Alien. That is, I think, more of dna, of what ridley scott a ridley scott film is and what ridley scott is as a filmmaker. You know he's, he's got some of that class stuff going on in there. He's, uh, it's, he's got a female protagonist and a hero in the middle of it. And again, I think, just when I just kind of realized that he invented science fiction, horror, he invented a genre of film. I think Alien. As much as I love Black Hawk Down, I think Alien is the right choice to go into the finals.
Speaker 1:I'm not here to argue it. I don't really think there's a wrong choice here and kind of no matter which way my vote went. It wouldn't really matter with the two of you siding with the alien. So for the record I'll put my vote down for blackhawk down. But I'm I also agree that alien best represents, I think, his filmography which now leaves us with american gangster. I love to see it here in the finals.
Speaker 2:Alien.
Speaker 1:This is tough for me because, for all the things I just said about Alien coming to it later, obviously, and being able to appreciate it as this artifact that has just lived on for decades and decades and decades and introduced new folks to sci-fi, to Ridley Scott's career, to horror, to Sigourney Weaver, to so many different things, you know, it made people fall in love and want to make movies themselves Like.
Speaker 1:This is such an influential movie, and I don't think you can say a lot of those same things about American Gangster.
Speaker 1:However, for me personally, american Gangster was a film that I got to experience in real time and, like when Marcus and I were saying earlier, you know, like interact with the soundtrack, appreciate its place in pop culture in the moment and understand that this is me getting to witness Denzel Washington in his, you know, still in his prime.
Speaker 1:Give such a great, commanding performance, to appreciate someone like Russell Crowe in the moment, give such a great performance and really start to understand, like how to best tell this, this historical epic in terms of going on location, like when they actually go to vietnam in this movie. That is so cool to actually be in harlem and to see the steam rising from the sewers of new york city and the way that he shoots that incredible stuff, um, and so, like I'm looking at a poster baleen across from me, I'm also thinking like I'm probably going to fall asleep watching American gangster tonight. So I don't know, I could go either way. I know that doesn't help you guys if you're on the fence as well, so, as someone who is, I'm going to defer here before I cast my vote.
Speaker 3:I, you know, when life gives you a tough decision, I think sometimes the move is to choose chaos and I, I got, I'm gonna fucking throw me down for american Gangster Because I think, like Alien, everyone's going to tell you it's XYZ, it's influential, it's all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:But what I like in a film isn't necessarily like, isn't necessarily all the things that Alien brings to the table. I certainly love Alien, but I don't know. I mean, I like I just really admire the craft and I think that's kind of like the phase I'm in in my life right now where a lot of what I'm admiring in directors work is their ability to like Just make something that's rock, fucking solid and really good and entertaining, and there's nothing wrong with it and it's good meat and potatoes filmmaking and you get all of that and more in alien. But, like, sometimes I don't want more, sometimes I just want good meat and potatoes filmmaking and that's what you get with american gangster and I'm that's why I'm voting for it the interesting thing about american gangster and if there's one movie that I would recommend.
Speaker 1:Erica, if you're listening, I know she wasn't able to join us for this episode and I don't know if she was able to get to American Gangster, but it's really interesting because, marcus, I'm not sure if you've been listening to recent episodes, but as we've been going back and bringing Erica on for more episodes, we're getting to experience what it's like, vicariously, through her, but what it's like for somebody who's in their thirties now to to go back and watch classics like the Godfather. She hasn't seen some of these films for the first time, and so it's really interesting when all of a sudden, we talked to her about it and we expect that she's going to be in love with it, like how we're in love with some of these classics, and yet she's like. I can totally appreciate it for its place in history. However, based on her movie habits, based on expectations for from a film like that that's that's gotten so much hype over the years it kind of doesn't live up to it or it just doesn't land the way that it did um with us or with folks who have watched it without as lofty of expectations.
Speaker 1:I think that Aliens, one of those movies that is kind of immune to some of that stuff, but it's really interesting. I would be so interested I'm trying to get to. Is it like to have her watch American Gangster, a film that is so similar to the Godfather but that is told with just a more modern pacing and with actors who you know, folks in in this era are more familiar with? And so that would be really interesting. Because I think that, going back to what I was saying earlier, that this is our, this is our generation's closest version to a film like that from the 70s and so with alien, I think there is comfort, comfort in knowing that a movie like that is so highly regarded and touted as this piece of iconic cinema. But American Gangster, I think, really needs to be appreciated as well for pulling off something that you just don't see directors do to that level of success all that often anymore all that often anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and just to tack on to that, I, I would certainly, I, I would 100 agree and that I think, directing at the level of craft and care and, you know, detail to all of your frames. It's just not you see it, but you see it in a different way. Um, and I I think ridley again I said it before and I'll say it again he's just an old school craftsman, okay, an old school hollywood craftsman, and that's what I like. So I gotta go.
Speaker 2:American gangster alien is celebrated. Alien and listen, I think 9 out of 10 people see this matchup and they're picking Alien every time. We are here in the business of podcasting and we are here in the spirit of recommending new films, especially new films, to people who haven't seen these films before.
Speaker 2:My guess is that probably 90% of our audience has seen Alien, I would say even 98%. I bet you a lot less have seen American Gangster. The fact that American Gangster came out in 2007 also kind of gives it this like if it was any other year in the 2000s, we might be talking about it as one of the great, great films of all time. Energy to it and I don't know. I kind of like the idea of a of our own little underground american gangster shooting the fucking xenomorph in the head and then you blot that shit there's a fifty thousand dollar alpaca, you blot that.
Speaker 1:Listen, in the words of frank lucas, my man I'm going american gangster, I'll tell you what to hey, here's another. We'll do it. Let's make it a clean sweep, because I'm all for continuity. Um, here's another thing. I don't know if we ever learned the name of denzel washington's german shepherd in that film, but that german shepherd could rival jonesy, and I know people love jonesy is one of the all-time movie animals.
Speaker 1:yeah, movie pets, but you know frank's german shepherd pretty solid as well. I love when a character in a film has a, an animal and of course it's going to be a dog but where they can just go and it just runs over. It just shows the discipline, it shows what it takes, just just great little subtle stuff there. All right, there it is. American gangster comes out victorious in the Ridley Scott bracket. I think we feel good about this, right?
Speaker 2:I feel good about it. Hell yeah I. I had a lot of fun with this exercise, I think. Gosh the round, three matchups, what those are? Eight great movies yeah, and I'm sure, a lot of people are going to be on our ass for for putting white squall over the martian, but that's because those people aren't cultured or educated, that's because they're dumb.
Speaker 1:I don't mean that they've never known what it's like to be in the company of men stranded out at sea they can only relate to matt damon on mars, not me couldn't be me couldn't be me um all right, that's amazing. Listen, folks go watch american gangster. See that we're not crazy here um an incredible film, an incredible movie year too that that 2000s, really, that 2007 year really was just murderers row.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's insane. Yeah, yeah for real.
Speaker 1:Um, all right, so that's going to do it for our Ridley Scott bracket in our episode for today. As for what's next on ETI, we will be back next week as we turn our attention to the other major November 22nd release, which is, of course, wicked, and talk about that film's overall success and impact. Marcus, before we get you out of here, are you a musical guy? Are you looking forward to Wicked?
Speaker 3:uh, I, because my girlfriend is on the other side of the wall. Yes, I am I. I want to believe that it will be good. I would like to be surprised by it. I like Jon M Chu. I really liked In the Heights.
Speaker 2:People are saying he's the next.
Speaker 3:Spielberg. People are saying I mean he's an incredible director. He has such a kinetic, lively style. I think he's a great director. I'm curious to see how Wicked turns out, because I know it's a part one and they're not advertising that and I also, like they're not really advertising that it's a musical, which seems crazy. They're really?
Speaker 2:they're really not, are they?
Speaker 1:I don't know why they're very, that's because it's coming from broadway and there's just the expectation that it is, or what if it's not?
Speaker 3:I mean, I don't, I don't know when this switch happened, that like we can't advertise musicals as musicals, but like I think it's dumb like listen max just you are.
Speaker 1:Max just teased a new segment that we're workshopping here on eti called. People are saying and you, you are in a cultivator, you're a Michelin chef of hot takes and so anytime, anytime that you want to come back and give us a, people are saying, hot take, I'm here for it. Um, I just want to throw that in the cultivator of hot day, oh God, um, I mean that's fine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I came in with. American gangsters are winter here. So, um, yeah, I mean that's fine. Yeah, I came in with. American gangsters are winter here. So, um, yeah, I mean, I think I, I'm, I'm looking forward to wicked. I'm hoping that it's better than the trailer.
Speaker 1:All right, and then, uh, before we wrap it up here, anything you want to tease going forward. You already talked about a couple of projects in the work. Is there anything that you can give us the skinny on and then where people can find you if they want to go look up your stuff as well?
Speaker 3:yeah, I uh, I got a short coming out next year. Uh, hopefully we'll be playing some festivals. It's called three women and a possible fire next door. It's a short screwball comedy. So, uh, that's coming out. I got another short that I'm in pre-production on. Now Don't want to say too much, but I'm working on it and it's exciting. Then, of course, I'm always busy with Seattle Film Society. You can learn more about my work at Marcus Baker Film. You can learn more about the Film Society at seattlefilmsocietycom. Anywhere is under Seattle Film Society, anywhere is under Marcus Baker Film. That's how you find me.
Speaker 2:Marcus, thank you so much for coming on the episode and I'm really proud of all of us going the Ridley length here For an episode. I was going to ask is this the longest episode all of?
Speaker 3:us going the Ridley length here. It's a goal of mine to to record your longest episode. You've achieved it. You've achieved it. Let's fucking go Three hours.
Speaker 1:We really did Ridley justice.
Speaker 3:I'm so proud of us guys. I'll be back some point soon, absolutely.
Speaker 2:We'd love to have you.
Speaker 1:We'll do the Napoleon director's cut rewatch.
Speaker 3:Can't wait.
Speaker 1:Great stuff, all right, so until next time, please follow. Excuse the intermission on Instagram and the three of us Marcus is also on letterboxd to track what we were watching between shows and we will talk to you next time on ETI, where movies still matter.
