Excuse the Intermission
Alex and Max take you on a journey through film with this discussion podcast about movies.
Excuse the Intermission
Unearthing Robert Eggers' Nosferatu with Filmmaker Justin Robert Vinall
Robert Eggers' Nosferatu revives a classic horror tale with a fresh perspective, exploring themes of desire, repression, and the nature of evil. The ensemble cast, particularly Bill Skarsgård and Lily Rose Depp, delivers compelling performances that enrich the film's haunting atmosphere. The episode delves into the film's production aspects, character analysis, and the broader implications of its storylines, highlighting Eggers' mastery in gothic storytelling.
• Eggers' unique approach to Nosferatu as a gothic horror film
• Strong performances from Skarsgård and Depp enhancing character depth
• Visually stunning cinematography that evokes silent film aesthetics
• Themes of repression and longing woven throughout the narrative
• Audience experiences and reaction discussions
• The film's place in the horror canon and predictions for its legacy
How's it? I'm Alex McCauley.
Speaker 1:I'm Max Fosberg and I'm Erica Krause and this is Excuse the Intermission a discussion show surrounding our dark lordship Nosferatu. Christmas holiday had a dark shadow loom over it this year and that shadow was cast by none other than the modern master of historical horror, robert Eggers. Joining us to talk about Eggers' fourth film is a special guest who is no stranger to genre filmmaking himself. That introduction and conversation up next. After this short break, all right, we are now delighted to be joined by Justin Robert Vinal.
Speaker 1:Justin is a Pacific Northwest writer, director and producer. He has been working professionally in the film industry for over a decade, co-founding the independent film company Next Floor Entertainment in 2010, and since then has continuously provided opportunities to regional filmmakers and personally has been able to sharpen his craft as an auteur. Justin's films have garnered numerous award nominations and wins at festivals across the country. Most recently, he was featured by the Seattle Film Society in their first ever In Focus Filmmaker Series, where his films Amico, a Purple Vision and From the Depths were screened. As if all that wasn't enough, justin is also the missing link to this band of Seattle filmmakers whom we've gotten to know over the past couple of years. Our audience is familiar with guys like Matthew Rush, marcus Baker and many others who Justin shares a creative space with, but we've never had the pleasure of welcoming him on the show until now. So, mr Binal, thank you so much for being here today. How are you doing?
Speaker 3:I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to dive into the darkness with you guys today.
Speaker 1:Yes, we can't wait. This, I think, is probably a collective, highly anticipated film of all of ours, and we, of course, have Max and Erica here today. We are recording virtually as it is the day after Christmas. Family plans and get-togethers still populate the December calendar, but we are cognizant of the importance of finding the time to chat about one of the year's most anticipated films. So, before we get to all of that, how are the two of you doing today? Merry Christmas, it's great to see both of you.
Speaker 2:Merry Christmas to you guys too.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, happy holidays. Just got back from a family gathering myself and yeah, so I'm happy to be on the pod and talking Nosferatu.
Speaker 1:Are you sure you weren't at Skarsgård's mustache styling parlor? There, a mustache place. All of a sudden I'm realizing wow, max, I know this is max. I know you've been working on for so long.
Speaker 4:Wow, yeah and uh, yeah, I think I know my halloween costume for next year. I just gotta keep growing this mustache out and uh, shave my head all right.
Speaker 1:So, justin, what's what's the time of? What's this time of year typically look like for you? Do you find yourself out at the movies a lot, or catching up on films at home that you may have missed during the year? Are there any fun holiday traditions that we should know about? I mean, yeah, nothing too crazy.
Speaker 3:It's like usually I always try to make December the month where I'm not doing a lot, but it ends up being the month where I'm like the most busiest. I'm like, well, one day we'll figure out how to break those habits, um, but I know just been just wrapping up productions and then like, um, I do like a yearly kind of like live stream for like our top 10 films of whatever year. So it's a lot of like, oh, I'll put that off until the end of the year and I put off too many movies until um, I'm just like running to um, uh, running to just catch up on all of them. So it's that.
Speaker 1:And then like sneaking in, like you know the traditional, like you know holiday films that like I always try to recap on, uh, every time of the, every, every time around this year do you, do you find that it is more or less challenging with, I would say, kind of the last five years of how movies get released now, to do something like that, like to catch things either on streamer or track down a physical copy, or maybe you bought something early in the year Like how does that look, what does that look like for you?
Speaker 3:It depends Like I'm fortunate to be in a situation where I get like a lot of screeners, so like I have the screener for the brutalist which is like a hard like I don't think it's playing wide until after the new year, so like trying to like you know, track down like harder films. Um, I usually am, I'm fortunate enough to get screeners like that. It's more so just the time of trying to like have um enough space to like you know, do all like the holiday family stuff and then um find the time for the brutalist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for then. Yeah, it's been like, I think, like the past week, shelby and I've been like um, I, we need to carve out four hours here. I didn't realize it was four hours until recently and I was like shit, um, but no, yeah, so um, it's. It's definitely interesting, especially like as, like you know, streaming continues to evolve and, um, how films are kind of showcased post like 2020. It's definitely been kind of an interesting kind of like um maze to kind of navigate through.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, I always wonder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 4:I follow Robert closely on Letterboxd and I swear I just said this to Kaylee like a couple of nights ago. I was like how does he see all these new movies before they're even freaking out? Now, I know you're a screener man. That's amazing. I'm coming over to your house bro, bro, I got baby girl.
Speaker 3:Come on. Oh yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1:No, I don't know if I'd be able to abide by the review embargo for something like baby girl, you'd catch me spilling all the beans there's certainly, like some films, that I will try to see in theaters.
Speaker 3:Nostradamus was an example where it's like if I get the screener that'd be great, but I really want to see this in the proper setting. Thankfully that happened. There's certain situations where it's a timing thing. We will have a chance, max, but like you know, there's.
Speaker 1:there's certain situations where just it's a timing thing and you know. So we will have a chance, Max Erica and myself, to kind of talk about our favorite films of the past 12 years over the next couple of weeks here. But did the two of you have any fun holiday watches, anything over the Christmas holiday that kind of got everyone around the TV, Maybe one of the old specials or anything like that, or was it just like put the Yule log screensaver on and talk to people face to face?
Speaker 2:The Yule log screensaver is definitely my mom's go-to and I was trying to tell her I'm like let's put on a Christmas movie or something. But I feel like I was really Christmas movied out actually, once Christmas Eve rolled around and then we were at my aunt's house last night and I was like, hey guys, let's watch the Family Stone for my fourth time this year. Yeah, the Yule Log is burning at my house.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was just at my uncle's and the Yule log was on when I got there and I immediately found the remote and put on the Muppets Christmas Carol for the kids. So because they were running around like wild, I needed them to show up For the culture you did that For the culture. Those people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was for the better of all mankind right there. Nice work. Yeah, my mom loves it too. I don't know I'm my family's doing christmas a little late this year as of this recording, we are actually celebrating tomorrow morning. It's at my house, so I will be in complete control of what's on the television and I'm very hot frost for that um hot frosty double feature with eyes wide shut, of course oh baby all right.
Speaker 1:So nosferatu is the focal point of today's conversation. Justin, you put your name in the hat a while ago to come on and talk about this film with us. Before we get into your thoughts on the movie itself, what is it about robert egger's films that speaks to you?
Speaker 3:it's really interesting because, like, I feel like he feels like a different filmmaker, like he feels like a filmmaker from a different time, like I remember watching the like at least the trailer for the witch, and being like captivated by ralph innocence, like deep, lumbering voice saying this really unique language and on your taylor, joy's kind of like drawing image and and you know, just the peekaboo, like sequence, that that that unfolds from that.
Speaker 3:So it was a very gripping trailer and I was like, oh, this is really like, this is a really kind of interesting horror film and um, um, yeah, when I went and saw it, I was just enamored by, by just the way he he's like, he's he's similar to, I think, like David Fincher in a way where it's like he's very like, meticulous about, like the, the little details and whatnot, and he's more on the historical end of of all that. So I find like things that I would. I think what gravitates me the most to him is like things that I have known about, like, um, this thing, that thing or this other thing, like, like, for example, like what I would know about how a witch's broom is made from, like you know a, um, uh, the, the blood and guts of a, of a, of a, uh, unbaptized child. It's like I didn't know that. That's interesting for me. It's like for me it's not an entrails man huh.
Speaker 3:No, I'm, I'm all, I'm all for the entrails. I was not aware of all that at the time, but, um, he he's definitely like a filmmaker. That I think opens up um, um doors to like, I think, uh, folklore and history that I wouldn't have been aware of. So it's like an interesting kind of thing to like dig into what like kind of drew him to a project or what that means on a on a broader scale, um, for inspiration. So I think there's a lot that I gravitate to robert eggers for, but that's kind of like one of the reasons to Robert Eggers for, but that's kind of like one of the reasons.
Speaker 1:Max and Erica, what's?
Speaker 4:your relationship with, with his work. Well, yeah, I think I mean I'm envious of, of his ability to research his, his subject, right For each movie. I mean, he, he is such a historian and you know, know he, all of his movies are period pieces and I, I think I, I, I will be super surprised if he ever does like a a current, uh, you know, movie, uh, in current times, uh, because he seems to be such a lover of history and he loves that side of it, and so what he's able to do then, and you know, with all that research and and realize it and put it on screen, it's, I mean, it's, it's pretty spectacular. Um, I also, you know something I said walking out of nosferatu. I was, I, I said the thing. The number one thing I really love about Eggers is he's not afraid of the dark, like he does not need, you know, 20 lights in a scene. He is so okay with a couple of candles or making it so dark that it's hard to see while you're watching, even in a movie theater.
Speaker 2:And I just I don't know I find him pretty gripping and his movies extremely gripping. Yeah, he definitely just kind of like what you guys were saying. He really appeals to my own personal interests of history and horror. He really has made these movies that just really those are two of my favorite genres. Like Justin was saying, the research that goes into these films and just I don't know, I feel like I learned like especially with the witch, you know I was definitely I had to watch that a few, a few times to just really understand like what was really going on and like kept reading more and more about it and it just impresses me like the more that he goes on with these films. It's just I love that part about it as a quick aside uh-huh, oh sorry.
Speaker 3:As a quick aside, since max brought up um eggers, make like he'd be surprised if, if eggers would make a contemporary film. Have any of you seen the front room by his uh two brothers?
Speaker 2:no, the one with brandy, yeah, I haven't we.
Speaker 3:I watched a little bit of it and then I ended up falling asleep. But me and my wife were watching it and it's it's quite a stark difference in terms of, like you know, coming from the same family, but just kind of how, um, modern, goofy like those sensibilities are. It's really. It's a really interesting watch. I need to finish it at some point.
Speaker 4:That was directed by Max Eckers and Sam I think yeah, yeah, I think Max and Sam, yeah. I guess I didn't realize that the the other Edgar boys made that film.
Speaker 3:I think I saw an advertisement for it and I was like, oh interesting, I saw it was the other Edgar brothers. I was like I wonder how they make a horror film. And then kind of spiraled from there. It felt like a poor man's get out and I was a little bummed about that. But again, it's like I think it's, it's, it's, it's um, it's definitely interesting to see kind of how far Robert Eggers goes the other way and kind of knows like exactly what works for him and how he stands out from from the rest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he, and I'm sure this is unintentional, no-transcript witchcraft. For hundreds of years there's been movies about vampires and when it's all said and done, when you look back at like, oh, don't show me a movie about vikings, people are gonna be like, well, you got to watch the northman. Show me a movie about dracula or vampires. And people are going to turn to both nosferatu films, but this one rightfully so, just as much as the original, and so I I think that that's just, it's a culmination of everything that he does and that he puts into his films. Um, but they're also just like, really atmospheric, and that's what I think I respond to the most is just how much you can fall in love with everything that's happening on screen. That on the surface might not feel like it has a lot to do with the story, but it just builds that entire universe out like how you would see somebody do, maybe in a different genre of filmmaking david fincher is a good comp. Paul thomas anderson, quentin tarantino all these universe out like how you would see somebody do, maybe in a different genre of filmmaking David Fincher is a good comp.
Speaker 1:Paul Thomas Anderson, quentin Tarantino all these people that pay so much attention to production design and I need to make sure that if this movie takes place in the 70s, that the cars are from the 70s and the billboards and the radio stations and all those little funny details you hear about those guys doing, eggers is doing it just in genre filmmaking. So when you think about guys who have made four films I mean maybe we can say this a little bit later for the end but would you say that he's four for four so far you think about kind of the the other big directors of maybe the generation behind him and what somebody like a david fincher or paul thomas anderson or even like david lynch, to maybe have a more one-for-one comparison. Do you think that like we're on an upward trajectory? Do you think he has kind of reached his apex? Where do you see him right now in the space as far as working filmmakers?
Speaker 3:um, yeah, I was just gonna say like um, I think about lynch a lot in terms of like, kind of how his catalog has, like how his catalogs like open up, since like a racer head all the way to the twin twin peaks, return and um, with his first four films, like what you have, a racer head, elephant man dune and um, blue velvet, blue velvet and blue velvet, oh, it's uh, no, like, like, um.
Speaker 3:I think what the smart thing that eggers is doing is genre jumping.
Speaker 3:I think it's great that he makes, like you know, a um, a, uh or a late 17th century um, uh, witchcraft film about a family, and then like a early or late 19th century, like how, lighthouse, cosmic, horror, uh film, and then like a 10th century, like viking film. It's like he's he's genre jumping in a way that's still within his wheelhouse and I think um expanding the way he goes about his projects in a in a very smart way, like I think when you see him go from the lighthouse and the witch to the northman, it's like that you know makes. Like it's great that he's able to now play in a bigger sandbox and do it well, and um, I think um naseratu is no exception to that and I think I think I'll be I'll be very excited to see kind of how his career advances um so on and so forth, especially kind of in his like later years, like in his like I don't know like heading towards his retirement years. I'd be curious kind of what he's crafting.
Speaker 4:Crafting then yeah, I think you know each movie has gotten bigger, right? Uh, so I I think it is an upwards trajectory. It'll be really interesting to see how. I don't know what the numbers look like on Nosferatu right now. Unfortunately, film is a business. If it makes enough money. You would think that he's just going to get a bigger and bigger budget. I would guess Nosferatu is maybe his biggest budget. Maybe the Northman was a little bigger. Do you know that, robert? So, you're good.
Speaker 3:JR, jr.
Speaker 1:Nosferatu is around a $50 million budget and it's projected to make that back opening weekend which is of course five days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it currently has has like 12 million in the box office from, uh, christmas, which is, yeah, 11 11 5 last night, which is pretty good yeah and I think the northman um originally was 70 mil and then expanded to 90 mil because of covid, but I think this is his second highest like budget yeah yeah yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I think, and I I've kind of read already that he has, he has a script.
Speaker 4:That's for what I would guess his next film, which is in, done at least in the first draft. Um, I, I don't know, I, I, I don't think, I think he, he is so meticulous and he's so researched that it doesn't really matter how much money he's going to get, like I think it gets used, every cent gets used in the right way, and as long as he stays true to that, I think his films, all his films, are going to be extremely successful and memorable as well. Right, like you know, even something like the Northman, which didn't critically set the world on fire, I think is still extremely celebrated a couple of years after its release. So I think the trajectory is up. I think he has yet to do something that people you know push back against I agree.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is this feels like the first movie of his where, and maybe just because I haven't been, you know, nearly as plugged in as I have been this year, but um, just it feels like there was so much hype around this for all kinds of movie lovers, not just like you know I'm. I remember seeing the witch and then like the lighthouse and I I wasn't really hearing people talk about that like leading up to it, but man, christmas day this year like that was the place to be was seeing nosferatu in theaters and I think that he's making like a really good name for himself in like a much wider community now, and so I agree, I think it's only up from here At least I hope so.
Speaker 4:Nosferatu also has entered the alternative Christmas canon. Oh yeah, the movie takes place during Christmas time. They say the word Christmas a couple of times. There's a Christmas tree in a couple of shots with like burning candles on it.
Speaker 3:You hear silent nights in the background. I mean it's like a bonafide Christmas film.
Speaker 4:Yeah, lots of snow, yeah, no.
Speaker 3:Yeah, alex, like when when Dracula ends to in the, when when Dracula ends to in the novel, dracula ends around Christmas time, so it's like there you go, even Dracula like, at least like, if you want, like a Christmas story to read, dracula is the one.
Speaker 4:Alex, where do you think Eggers is headed?
Speaker 1:I think he's gonna. So I was thinking about who he is, who's the robert eggers of other like entertainment industries, and if, if robert eggers ends up being like the lebron james of genre filmmaking, then and if people start to get tired of that, then that's going to be on us for not appreciating that. Like, like I love. I love what Justin was just saying. Like I want to see what he's doing at 60 because, like, what LeBron's doing at 40 is still putting up triple doubles like every five games or whatever, and people just take that for granted. And so I I almost want to see him do something.
Speaker 1:And and again, this is probably best saved for the end here when we talk about legacy but just generally speaking, I think I want to see him do something that maybe isn't so heavily focused on history and the craft, and that doesn't mean that he can't set it in a time other than our own, that isn't contemporary, but I would love to see his take on just like a straight up slasher.
Speaker 1:Like I would love to see him make something like, in a violent nature, what I think would be really, really interesting.
Speaker 1:Just like go out in the woods, have a stalking serial killer and not have it, be so concerned with costuming and with some sort of language and interpreting a dialect and worrying about all these not worrying about, but, you know, just like focusing on all these historical accuracies. And so I I would love to see him do something like that far down the line. But at the same time too, like I'm not going to just sit here and not appreciate greatness while it's happening, like, yes, it's boring to watch the chiefs win 15 games every year, it's boring to watch LeBron James still do his thing in in, you know, the latter stages of his career, but it's greatness, and like it needs to be observed and appreciated. And you know he is still a young filmmaker. I'm not saying that like I'm so sick and tired of what he's doing right now. I do still think that it's on an upward trajectory as well. Part of part of that did start to weigh on me, though a little bit with Nosferatu, and we'll get to that here.
Speaker 4:What, where, where, where do you think he is in relation to Ari Aster? Cause, Ari Aster is kind of the the running mate that he came up with in in a24 now, of course ari's only got three movies. He's got four so but but ari's, I think his new movie's coming out. Is it 2025?
Speaker 3:I think so the west, of the neo-western with joaquin yeah yeah, and emma stone. That's going to be kind of interesting so.
Speaker 1:So what I think ari did with his third feature, bow is afraid, was something that I would also like to see robert do, because in all of these films probably not so much the witch, definitely not the witch, but in his other three films there is an odd sense of humor, uh, that a lot of his characters maybe don't lean into but definitely show, and I think would be really interesting to see him do something like what ari did with bow is afraid and basically center a whole movie around his warp sense of humor.
Speaker 1:Because, as after hearing what his brothers have tried to do on another feature that maybe went awry a little bit, I want to see somebody who is in complete control of you know, their creative energy do something like that. Because I think Bo is afraid I need to revisit that film because I thought that was a step back for Ari and now, in thinking about his relationship and what he's doing compared to Eggers, I'm like I want to see not that maybe the lighthouse is in that movie, there's just like nonstop burping and farting and masturbation and all kinds of like really funny, goofy, aberrant stuff in that movie, but also like it's not a comedy first. It's maybe a comedy. Fourth or fifth down the line, the lighthouse is, and so I just would love to see what he does with something really dark and twisted and humorous.
Speaker 3:I think the biggest thing about ariaster, especially with both, is afraid I think he's just pulling a lot of himself into the movie. Like the whole movie is just about this guy who's anxious about everything, and you can just look at ariaster and that is one of the most neurotic people like on earth, like. So I think it's more so, like I think eggers hasn't like put like maybe himself completely on the stage, um, and he's more interested in like masquerading behind like uh, these things that interest him in his intellectual side as opposed to his more emotional side. So I, I know what you mean by that. So I would be interested in him seeing kind of doing a more, um, direct character study that's outside of like a mythos, like nasrat or am or hamlet or some sort of uh elements like that. So I, I I definitely would be kind of curious to see him kind of get more into the, the emotionality of things.
Speaker 4:Not that his films don't do that, but I think something that's more personal I I'd be interested in yeah, that's, that's a great point that he, he has been very like it's almost again, it's like almost documentarian, right, uh, with these films, but just you know, drenched, drenched in genre, um, where he's he's teaching you a history lesson, as opposed to going inside and teaching you his feelings.
Speaker 1:Well, I like that you brought up history, because now, getting to Nosferatu, it is, of course, the retelling of the silent black and white film of the same name from 1922. That's pretty cool that we're now remaking films a hundred years later. The story is famously known for being an unauthorized and unofficial adaptation of the bram stoker novel dracula. Egger's journey with this remake began nearly a decade ago when he had completed his first feature film, the witch. Nosferatu was actually spoken about as being Robert's second film. However, he himself has said that that would have been out of pocket at that time in his career. But rumblings continued. Casting rumors swirled. Anya Taylor Joy was once penciled in as the lead actress.
Speaker 1:More time passed, edgar's made the Lighthouse and most recently, prior to this film, film the north man, and then it was full steam ahead with nosferatu. Fast forward to christmas day 2024 and the film opened on 29 hundred screens and grossed 11.5 million on opening night, and is projected to finish right around 50 million domestically over the five day christmas week slash weekend. However you want to look at it, the film currently sits at four, even out of five on letterboxd and certainly feels like the cinematic event of the holiday week, as erica was saying justin, I want to start with you. I know you did get to see that advanced screening of the film. How is it sat with you? And then, having re-watched it recently, can you kind of think back about any parallels or any things that stood out to you the second time around? Just what were your expectations and then how are they met?
Speaker 3:generally speaking, yeah, I think first and foremost I'll just say it's it's my least favorite robert eggers, but it's a damn great film though. And if that's like your, like your weakest film right now, it's it's a pretty great bar to be at because I think nasaradu does a great job at um doing a pretty straight retelling but shifting at the perspective of um. I re-watched the 1920 nasaradu recently and just am so amused by kind of how much of a buffoon thomas hutter is in that one and it's very much so just kind of through the adventurer's eyes and not so much um ellen's eyes. And I found um ellen's journey. Um, when I originally saw it I was a little conflicted with how I felt about ellen's trajectory and sitting with it and having some time to sit, uh, to think about it. Um, I was more gripped by kind of like some of the thematic elements that were kind of surrounding her and count or locks relationship, be it um repression, um sexual awakening or um shame or what have you.
Speaker 3:Um, I think it's, I think, um, I think how it explores it. Um, I think it's, I think I think how it explores it after another rewatch made me really invested in Ellen's kind of journey and relationship to Count Orlok. And then, yeah, outside of outside of just the story itself, I think it's, it's. It's masterfully made, like it's, it's. It's shot beautifully. I love the lighting decisions, like what Max was mentioning earlier about how there are several spaces that are candlelit, but they're lit perfectly to follow exactly where you need to be in a space and just adding atmosphere to it. I think it's a great stepping stone forward for someone who has been self-deprecating about his own work and seeing him kind of continue to become more and more of a confident filmmaker. And I didn't get into more of the specifics, but overall it's one of my favorite films of the year and I think it's an astounding piece of filmmaking.
Speaker 1:Erica, what about for you Expectations versus what you walked out with?
Speaker 2:I tried really hard to have little expectation with this because there was so much hype about it and I was really excited and so I didn't want to be disappointed. I'm trying really hard to step back from trailers so much when I really want to gravitate towards them because I just I'm trying to like lower my expectations just in general, and so I was fully prepared to like, okay, that this might not be great, just don't get upset if it's not. But honestly I really did like it overall. I mean I knew deep down that I was probably going to really enjoy it and I was right. I mean, I think this is one of those movies that the more I rewatch it and this will definitely be a rewatch movie for me, whereas a couple like I don't I've only seen the Lighthouse once and it's not really something I'm going to revisit but I do watch the Witch fairly often and I have yet to see the Northmen for the second time, although I did love it the first time. And so I feel like with Nosferatu I'll probably watch this, you know, frequently and absorb more as I go on. But I think, just first impression, I was really like no surprise, like very impressed just with the vibe of everything. I mean that's kind of his whole thing.
Speaker 2:And um, I really the only I did have a little like of a bone to pick with some of the casting decisions like from with like emma corin and um I think that's what her last name is but um and aaron taylor johnson, I just they didn't fit for me and I just didn't love them in it. I was just kind of like every time they were on screen I was like okay, let's get them out of here. But um, I love nicholas hole and I thought he was such a great thomas. And um, I'm a huge bill scars guard fan, so he just completely. I mean I think that if you didn't know that he was in this movie you'd never know.
Speaker 2:Um just completely transformed for this, as he does with a lot of his roles. But I left the theater like really happy because the ending it was definitely a slow start for me where I was like okay, I, you know I. I was really kind of like wanting more, but I was still very much enjoying it for what it was, just kind of putting me in the movie and like immersing me in everything. Yeah, I had fun.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I going into the film. I've always. Dracula has always been like my least favorite. You know horror movie, right Like I. I just don't care for that story. I've always found the story of Dracula or Nosferatu or you know, and vampires in general just a little dull or boring.
Speaker 3:You like the mummy more?
Speaker 4:Yeah, a Creature from the Black Lagoon. That one rips that one rips and I cannot wait for the remake of that. Hopefully it doesn't. You know, I don't know. We can get into remakes later. So going in I was definitely nervous, but also I am kind of a like robert eggers stan right, like I'm, just like I'm, I'm you're an egghead I'm an egghead, for sure.
Speaker 4:That's fantastic. I'm the president of the eggheads and I don't know. I was gripped from scene one and what I am really drawn to at least right now in my own filmmaking journey and then so now that I'm watching movies is Eggers is like one of the most exciting guys with his camera movements, his transitions, his camera movements, his transitions, his camera movements, his lighting, as we touched on the way he traverses the space with that, with that lens. Uh, it's just, I, I just find it thrilling.
Speaker 4:Um, and so, even though, like going in, I knew like the story, going in, I, I was, I was hooked, I was hooked on on every scene and every scene was just just dripping, I thought, with, with style and pizzazz and, um, I was really entranced, uh, and for the first time in a long time, or, yeah, first time in a long time in the theater, like I was. I know I sometimes say I'm locked in, but I was strapped in, I was tied to the seat and really really enjoyed it. So then, when I'm having that feeling, just from the technical side, to put the performances on top of that, especially Lily Rose step, which I'm sure we'll, we'll get into details about. I mean, yeah, I was hooked, I'm, I'm, I'm hooked. I can't wait to buy this Blu-ray 4k digital physical. I love, really, really loved this movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like Erica, I tried not to have any lofty expectations for this film and for most films that I'm anticipating, especially someone of Edgar's stature. At this point, you tell me he's making a movie, I'm going to go see it. I don't need to be sold on trailers or casting notes or anything like that. And so, going into the movie with zero expectations, I kind of walked out feeling the same, neither like blown away but also not disappointed. And I had the same response to the Northmen, I think. And then, having just rewatched the Northmen, I feel like I was actually maybe too prisoner of the moment for the craft. And then, rewatching the movie, I was just kind of like there's really not much story here. But then again, like what, what story needs to be there? Really it's. It's pretty simple, just like a man is out for revenge, and we've seen that in Westerns and we've seen that in cop dramas and we've seen that across the entire cinematic landscape, and so very similarly, that's where I sit with this one where, having actually just re-watched the nosferatu original 1922 version, um, only like a month or two ago, the story was really fresh in my mind and so, knowing where the film was going, I don't think I was necessarily let down by by the process, but sort of just in the execution of how we got there. I thought that maybe we would see more terror, and I know that a lot of people are saying that this movie was really scary to them, and on multiple different levels. I think that there's a metaphor to be made for Nosferatu being Lily Rose's depths you know they talk about in the movie her melancholy, her depression, all these other things, and finally she gets to exonerate it at the end and it is triumphant and it's great because evil is defeated. And so there are these very the film has these very simple and familiar themes to it and and I understand that and I recognize it and I appreciate the craft behind showing us and telling us and getting us there.
Speaker 1:But you know, I think about. I think about some scenes from the original that I actually think were done better in this version, and I don't know why eggers wouldn't take time to focus more on, like Nicholas holds character, thomas, getting to the castle and spending time at the hotel and getting a book about vampires and becoming almost more paranoid, like like Hutter does in the original. I think that that would have been a lot, because the Nicholas whole character is something that I think people are a little bit conflicted on, at least his performance in the role. But I think that would have been helpful for us to kind of get to know him a little bit more through his fears. And so, with an expanded runtime and and the ability to do more and show more, I just feel like there were some missed opportunities.
Speaker 1:I don't know if there's anything left on the cutting room floor, but I'm I'm right at about just like a c on this one at 75 as it stands right now. Um, definitely my I don't know if it's my, my least favorite eggers film, but it's. It's somewhere around the northman which are still just like they're really good, they're they're really good, they're, they're really impressive. But when you set the bar with the witch and the lighthouse coming out the gate as your first two at least for me who just like find so much joy in those really dark and and twisted stories that's, that's hard to beat. So that's just where I am right now with it.
Speaker 3:I think I think I've said this about like Nicholas Wenning Refn before too, where I'm like he's like I'd love to see just like him do TV, like I love to see him explore all this stuff like in a long format kind of show. And then you know what's the show? To old, to die young comes out and I watch that and I'm like, oh, this is okay, we're really taking advantage of this kind of quiet space. But I and I know eggers has like a ross sputin miniseries he wants to make but um, I don't disagree with like there are certain sequences or scenes, um, especially at the castle, where I'm just like completely immersed in the space and just love being in the presence of kind of this, almost like like my favorite scene in the movie or sequence in the movie is, um, nicholas holt, um arriving at the crossroads and the carriage arrives and they go up to the castle. It's like I was like blown, I was like completely absorbed by it.
Speaker 3:That's like the almost spike lee kind of like uh, floating into the, the carriage is just amazing and just like just swinging open yeah yeah, it's, it's awesome, it's all great, it's very dreamlike and like up my alley, I like very kind of ethereal, kind of strange, like otherworldly kind of presence and um, um, I, yeah, I would have loved more of that, but I, I, you know this movie is like what?
Speaker 3:At two hours and like 10 minutes and it's like I don't know even even, like you know, I would have loved to see more of like of the um, of the, uh, the journey across the on the, the meter and whatnot, or um, because there's a lot of time that's spent in between, like kind of forming lily rose's relationship in regard to um, count or lock, but, um, I think, yeah, more paranoia building with the nicholas whole character would have been fantastic in the in the castle presence, um, and especially like how he kind of escapes is a little goofy, um, but outside of that, and I think what the herzog version of this film does really well is showcasing what happens to um hutter, in that as he kind of transforms more as this kind of like um, this shadow of of count orlock, and how the infection kind of builds on him and nicholas holt, this one's like oh, I got better, you know.
Speaker 4:so yeah, I was, I was prayed, I was prayed better yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think I think they're. You know, I think the, the every variation of hutter is is interesting in their own way, kind of like the, the, the, the chad nosferatu, um, like like coming to get his, his girl, and just kind of like the masculinity element of it all is is interesting in this one. But no, yeah, I would like it just at the. At the end of the day it's like yeah, I'd love to see a four-hour version of this. You know, I'd spend an hour and a half in that castle 100 the boat points.
Speaker 1:I had that in my notes as well, because for someone who wanted more terror out of it, I feel like that's where edgers could have almost turned it. There could have been, you know, like a 20 minute span of the film where it does become like the slasher that I want to see picking everyone off right and and we get a little bit of that, and I think that there's a good balance. You know, I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted a sequence like that had he have gone in that direction to stand out too much in the film, because it is such, while being at a very high tone but a very even keeled atmosphere throughout the entire thing, and so not having one moment stand out too much before we get to a real climax makes sense. But I was thinking like, oh, out at sea in the dark, the way he has shown that he can shoot the light, would have been really fun to spend more time there.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's get to kind of some of the performances, because we've really started to talk about a lot of the actors here involved. We have a lot of notable performers doing a lot of different things in the space, and so what did the three of you make of the ensemble. We can kind of start with our highs, maybe then go to our lows. Erica, why don't you start this one off?
Speaker 2:Sorry, I know I kind of already touched on this with my impression of the movie, but I mean I think that Robert does a really good job of casting people, just in general, like that's. I've never been disappointed by his casting decisions and um, so I think you know Bill, as Orlok was, just I mean I don't really know, like I think that that was a really great decision. I mean I think what I was reading, that he was originally casted as Thomas but then he was recast as Orlok. And I don't really have a whole lot of experience with Lily Rose Depp, like I don't know that I've ever seen her in anything before. I might have, but I just Yoga hosers, Go check it out.
Speaker 3:Oh boy the idol.
Speaker 2:The idol I have heard yeah, I've not seen that. Yeah, the idol I have heard yeah, I've not seen that. But I loved her. She has such a haunting look to her already and I think that she, minute ago, like I just kind of struggled with the supporting cast, except just the two, like you know, aaron Taylor Johnson and Emma Corrin. I was just kind of like get them out of here. I was just I don't know why, but they took me out of it when they were in the scenes, took me out of it when they were in the scenes, but obviously, like Willem Dafoe again just having like the best time of his life these days and just delivering some like killer, like one liners, and I what's the guy's name from the witch that he's been?
Speaker 3:Ralph Anderson.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love him. I mean I think that everyone was great, but yeah, I, I mean I think that everyone was great, but yeah, I would have loved more Orlok time. Honestly, just because every time he came on screen I was just looking for Bill in his character. You know, I'm just like seeing if I could recognize the eyes or anything, and I really couldn't't like. It was so fun. I love watching him transform.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think you know that's interesting that Bill was casted as Thomas first, because if you go that route, I mean him becoming paranoid, bill Skarsgård in that role becoming paranoid and manic, bill Skarsgård in that role becoming paranoid and manic, and you know he probably takes that to another level that maybe Nicholas Holt is unable to do, because Bill can just be so crazy with his physical acting right like in his face. He can change his face so much. And so I don't know, orlok, honestly, could you have really put anyone in that makeup and come up with a creepy voice? Maybe I don't know if he does enough physically to really be like, oh, it has to be Bill Skarsgård. I think Bill as Thomas would have been really interesting. But I mean Lily Rose, deb, deb LRD is the big winner here. I mean I thought her eyes were going to pop out of her head at one point and the fact that you know she's come out and said that her main inspiration for this role was the, the actress from possession, isabel uh, bajani, bajani, uh is. I mean some of those sequences where she's, where she's freaking out and being like possessed, particularly the sequence. I think my favorite sequence is when she was like going back and forth on Nicholas Holt and then you know, and just like, with the tongue and the fucking eyes in the back of the head, just just haunting, haunting stuff. So I think I think she's the big winner of the cast.
Speaker 4:You know, willem Dafoe comes in. I wish he comes in earlier in the film, right, I think you have so much fun when he's on screen because he's Willem Dafoe and, as Erica said, just having the time of his life lately. But I do think he was kind of like kept off screen maybe a little too long, like bring him in earlier, like bring him in earlier. But and then Aaron Taylor Johnson, you know, I think, plays a douche pretty well. He's. He is kind of like this snobby, rich guy who, like is the non-believer, right, and I, I, I found him casted, right, I, I, you know, know I didn't like him and I think that worked. But Lily Rose Depp, I, I, just I was so blown away by her.
Speaker 1:The Defoe character is interesting because it's a role that was clearly expanded for this film, that we didn't see a whole lot of in previous iterations of the story, and so it was interesting because with everyone else you kind of know their trajectory and so as much as he's in there hamming it up, playing with the tone a little bit, providing comic relief, that for me I feel like didn't really fit, but my theater seemed to love it. It was. It was just interesting because you put someone else in that role who's maybe not as performative as as willem and and and that maybe works better as him just being a supporting role, and then maybe you're not wanting more from it because it is someone of such prominence, so I don't. How did you feel about his character, justin?
Speaker 3:I you know he's eggers is definitely like with the whole nasarado element. It is yeah, it is a a unauthorized adaptation of dracula. So there's a lot that eggers is pulling from the novel um specifically. So I I definitely see the professor character being an extension of van helsing and van helsing and a good amount of adaptations I think has been always kind of electric and and and kind of a wild card, um and I I in the case of home to foe um. I found both humor and kind of the drama, the. The drama, especially like when he's like having kind of that dialogue with the rose def mirror, the ancona or the priestess of isis. It's like there is. I think he does a good job balancing both um, um. But he is a great kind of like almost comic relief. I mean like how can you not love the line? I I've seen things that isaac uh have never seen and I would. He would crawl up. I can't do the line justice but like back into his womb, crawl back into his mother's womb.
Speaker 3:It's like he's got like incredible, like like um one liners, uh, so I don't like I, I, I, I think, as a um, as a um, as someone that's part of that ensemble, his um, his performance felt theatrically right for me, and I think you know him coming from theater um, I do think that there is a level of theatricality to this like gothic horror film that um, I mean right, like this morning I got like images from friends with, like you know, new Naseratu, look, drop, and it's like you know a picture of like a bald guy with a big mustache, and it's like when I first saw it I was like that's going to be a big topic of discussion because it's it's it's this character that we have and that we've had a pre-existing idea of, both as dracula and as nasarado, and it's it's it's vastly different. But again, that's like what I love about, like egger's approach to um, this vampire, is how do you showcase a, an undead, uh, transylvania nobleman, and um lean would have a giant mustache? He would, and he looks, and it looks great. I would like, I'm pro mustache, like I, I'm all, I'm all here for the nas rodgers dash, um. But you know, yeah, I think, um, I, I, I, I'm, I'm in the camp of like, I, I, I think everyone in the movie serves their purpose well, like, uh, well, um, I think bill, yeah, bill, skard skard is completely transformative.
Speaker 3:And seeing the film the first time and just being completely like shocked at like how, how, how much of himself is gone in the role, that re-watching it the second time I was like, wow, it's that he is just completely embodying this character and the makeup is just like you know, only pushing that further, and I think he's amazing in it. He, I know, used like an opera coach to lower his register and I think that helps with the accents. I know the I. I think if you remove the accent, it kind of loses like the touch of what nasferatu or, even more so, dracula is. So I, I think, while the accent can be perceived as goofy, I think it's handled brilliantly. I, I love, love when he rolls his r's I was like oh my god, it's all that.
Speaker 3:I love it. Nicholas holt is, is, is I, I, you know, a great fit for thomas hutter. And this version of thomas hutter, um, kind of being like this, this meek, um businessman that's trying to um, keep his life together, and just kind of the frantic energy that's coming from it. It's more so I have issues with his characterization more than the performance.
Speaker 3:Lily rose is insane. She's spectacular. The body language, the, the, the shifting from, from, from uh despair to to glee is unreal. It's. It's crazy just kind of how effortlessly she kind of falls between the two, especially like the scene you mentioned max, the, the, her having her argument with um, uh, thomas near the end of the film and just this kind of eyes roll back, tongue like drool, like it's, it's, it's amazing, um, and she's like phenomenal, like and and the possession scene with with Willem Dafoe is is outstanding, just like the way that she contorts her body and I adore that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, aaron Taylor Johnson similar where I I think you know he he plays like a snobby ship, ship man, I think, well, I think it's like definitely the Aaron Taylor Johnson and mccorn's part in it is just kind of like this is what you should be like this is, you know, it's, it's, it's all that, but I I understand like it's more so an extension of kind of how, the how this plague affects the town on a greater scale and you're not as invested in them as like thomas or um, uh, ellen, um you know how I knew.
Speaker 1:You know how I knew that to be true. When, when nosferatu bites their kids necks off and I was pretty metal that was sick.
Speaker 3:We start killing kids.
Speaker 1:I was like oh okay the way he drops the kid is awesome and I think the way that that scene is shot too, with him silhouetted in front of the window, in front of the light there, that's really where and maybe nosferatu, at least the one that we're familiar with outside of the books isn't supposed to feel so imposing.
Speaker 3:But he looks huge and that that looks like a big bill scars garden in that scene, and so I I loved that yeah, yeah, he like the presence that bill scars guard have has it throughout the whole film is like, even when he's like meeting ellen in person for the first time, just the way he lingers in the corner, it's just. He's so gripping. And one last thing for the cast like Ralph Innocent is always incredible. I clap and cheer every time he shows up.
Speaker 3:But Simon McBurney as Hair Knock oh yeah what a performance when he's running out, like you know, laughing and being all gleeful as as as not as um count orlock arrives. He's, he's awesome, he's so good and apparently was supposed to play renfield in uh coppola's uh uh dracula oh wow, yeah, he's been waiting.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and that's the other funny thing about Defoe is that Defoe is a Count Orlok alumni, and so I do like his presence being in the film, at least for that sake.
Speaker 1:I do think that, like what all of you have said, that Aaron Taylor Johnson to me a little bit just kind of felt like he was playing dress up and that took me out of it for for a majority of those scenes. But I do understand that he's there to show classism and what's happening with the elitists and and what paranoia because of the plague is doing to everybody else. Um, yeah, when it comes to to bill skarsgård as count orlock, I don't know if I wanted him to. I expected him to be more imposing. I thought that that would be the big, the big curve that that um edgar's did was like maybe make him more of like a menacing villain as opposed to someone who is more cunning and living in the shadows, and I guess it's good that we didn't do that, because that's maybe not what the material calls for. However, I do feel like bill skarsgård, the the horror villain, kind of the scream king who we've come to know him as, was wasted a little bit in this performance. He does good voice, he does great voice work and the makeup team does everything to make him as to give him as signature of an appearance as possible, but I I do think and I I talked to a friend about this who made a good point because a lot of the jump scares and that's another thing that we haven't really gotten any other Edgar's film is like jump scares and a lot of them are relied upon for either his face flashing Lily Rose Depp gets a couple good ones as well Orlok jump scares in the film.
Speaker 1:The friend who I was talking to said something good about it or spoke well about it. When they said that, well, the scenes in the witch and the lighthouse that are disturbing and unsettling and truly like terrifying to me. Because when I think like Edgar and horror, I think of and you know, justin, because of your experience with sirens, I think that you can relate to this but like when in the lighthouse, when there's just like a wide shot of a siren floating around in the middle of the water and there's this high pitch screaming and then we cut back to robert pattinson's face and he doesn't know what to think, like all of that is terrifying. Or like I think about the, the terror and the horror in the witch, and it's not a big loud musical cue and something flashing on the screen. It's like this young seductive woman cloaked in red stepping out of her house in the middle of the woods and then all of a sudden you know she's luring um a young boy into her house and like that is so terrifying in that movie or it's, or it's black philip's presence, whatever it may be. It's so different from what we get in this movie where I think that the quote-unquote scares of the film are are jump scares.
Speaker 1:And then when talking about like, where does the terror come from, then it's definitely lily rose's depth performance in her relationship to what's happening to her and to the town around her and to her young family and everything and her friends, and so that's something that I give her a ton of flowers for and I'm throwing all the glitter her way when it comes to carrying this film's. Really carrying everything in the film for me, I thought, is as far as like being an avatar for us as an audience member, to to really key us in on on what Edgar's and what everyone else involved wanted to communicate, and so I thought she shined, I thought she was great. I feel bad for my guy Holt. I just watched another movie where he's really awesome in and gets to kick some ass, um, but he's just like been such a cuck for so long and I'm so tired of it like big time roles, um, so go watch the order, because he's awesome in the order.
Speaker 1:I just watched that today, um, but yeah, I mean an interesting, an interesting ensemble, to say the least I think, quickly, just on the topic of like, I don't disagree like that.
Speaker 3:I think the, the scares in this aren't the most effective compared to like, say, the witch, I think, the witch. What makes that work so well in terms of like, the scares getting you and the tension building is more of the unknown. We have a bit of context of what um count orlock is versus black philip. Black philip is this really strange presence and you're not sure what exactly he is until um later on in the movie. And I think when you do get certain scares from black philip or like the, the certain um elements surrounding the woods of this family, um, I think the, the fear of the unknown and and this goes for like, uh, the siren in the lighthouse too, it's a, it's like. I think the fear of the unknown is, is um a lot stronger in those films. And thus when like, yeah, black philip attacks at the end, it's, it's jarring and and and and and does catch you off guard. Where I think the jump scares are a bit more set up in this in a more traditional sense, I, I think they're like.
Speaker 1:I think smile 2 does a fantastic job with building tension and then repeatedly hitting you with like jump scares well, and it makes sense if you think about kind of the subject matter behind those three films, because the Northman's not really trying to be scary but but when it comes to like the witch, the witch is dealing with the devil and how does the devil work in?
Speaker 1:Like whispers and in silence, and so for those scares to be more atmospheric and make sense, and then same with the lighthouse, like what you're saying, that movie's terrifying because it's all about like human psyche and what, what tricks your mind can play on you, and so for that to be more, more like metacognitive makes sense as well, but like orlock's a singular presence, he is like one person and so for him to be all of a sudden just like boom right there in your face, it's kind of what you want out of the film. It's just it was a different. That was. That was the one thing that I actually now thinking about and just saying it out loud, kind of give Edgar some credit for, because we haven't seen him really throw that pitch yet to just give us like straight up jump scares. So so I like it. It was different, but I like it different, but I like it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think. I think maybe that's some of the restraint of, you know, remaking a known story, as opposed to, you know, going in and doing something like the witch or the lighthouse, where you can just like, as alex was saying, pitch at your own speed and confuse the audience or, or, you know, terrify the audience in a much different way, as opposed to, you know, I am remaking nosferatu. There's a vampire, he has to jump out at the screen. Um, so yeah, I I think maybe that's some of the restraints of of remaking such a famous story were you?
Speaker 1:were you scared by the movie erica?
Speaker 2:no, I mean, that's like, well, that's such a hard question to ask me because I don't ever. I it's, I'm really hard to scare. But, um, I will say, like the end, um, you know spoilers ahead, but um, like the very end scene, with him and lily in the bed, and there's like the part where, like, there's just this really crisp shot of the two of them super close up and his, you know, he's bleeding from his eyes and he's dying. Essentially that part was like you know, I don't know, I'm just kind of I'm a sicko, so I'm like watching that, I'm like, oh, I love this, I want this like the whole movie and it's creepy, like there's there were so many like really eerie parts of the movie.
Speaker 2:But I don't think I was ever really scared, even with some of the jump scares. Technically, I don, I was kind of. I actually, um, when I was watching it this morning, I was like I was I actually took note of that where I was like oh, that was like a very traditional jump scare and it didn't really do anything. But I think, just cause I was kind of fascinated by everything else, that I wasn't really going to be afraid of wake, no matter what. But I wanted more like, like, if anything like. What really scared me, too, is what I can. Uh, her, what? What's the character's name?
Speaker 1:um, ellen ellen no uh, the realtor the realtor guy.
Speaker 2:Oh uh, knock, her knock her knock, yeah, um, her, um, I uh, when he was in his little cell with the animal, I mean, of course that was just, it was there, was just, I think, if anything, I felt a little like on, like unsettled during, um, during, like certain scenes, but I never really scared, but that's kind of an impossible thing for me these days.
Speaker 4:I think also Eggers. You know his take on Nosferatu because I feel like in the 1922 one he is much more of a creature, right. And then you get the 1931 Dracula where he's much more of a man like a suave man. Yeah, he's trying to fuck.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:This tries to play feel like both sides right, and so maybe that also kind of takes away from some of these jump scares where I found the film a lot more like romantic than I was expecting. Uh, in like a deranged way between orlock and ellen right that they're, that he really is just like obsessed and in love with this girl who calls out to him who, who makes this, this creature, come to life and and desire her, uh, and so I found that interesting. But it would have been I don't know it kind of would have been interesting if we go full creature with a Bill Skarsgård in this makeup and it is more physicality, it is more animal-like, because I think kind of going back and forth throughout the movie maybe hurts some of those jump scares.
Speaker 3:I think it's comparable to, if there's a modern comparison, like crimson peak is, is is like, not so much a horror film first, more of a gothic romance. And I would say, while this is presenting itself to be a horror film, I feel like it's more in the realm of a gothic romance and, um, I think again, yeah, I, I was more enamored by like just the, the craftsmanship and, and you know, just seeing enough horror at this point too. Yeah, I'm a little bit more not as like I, I, I the jump scares, like, like just of, like Lily Rose, like eyes bleeding and whatnot, like those, those don't do a lot for me. I think they're just, you know they're there to like, oh, gotcha, you know um, but but um, it's, I think I think, if, if, if it played more intention, especially like, again, like, I think the ship's a good example of like play.
Speaker 3:If you're able to play more intention with the animal that you got kind of going on in here, it's, it's better. But the way it's set up and executed, I'm like, yeah, you know, like, if you haven't seen a horror film before, yeah, maybe that's like spooky, but, like you know, at the end of the day, kind of seeing like a little bit of the creature in the shadows and having the misdirection and all that jazz. I just didn't. Yeah, it's not as effective as like other horror films. They kind of touch on that and again. So it's, like you know, in the context of the of the monster is um easier to kind of ground it and label it versus like something that's a bit more of the unknown I like how you labeled my, my guys, the rats, as misdirection.
Speaker 1:That was good. Lots of misdirection with rats, um, okay, so so the edgar's effect here. What's our favorite part of the production? We've talked about a lot of it, but you guys were going to try to distill it down to to one specific thing here seeing it in the theater, and then maybe even Justin, you can kind of give people a sneak peek into watching it at home, like what is? What is it like experiencing this film sort of for the first time, but then also on rewatch? Was there anything that stood out to you?
Speaker 3:Gosh, it's like I, you know, when you watch it the first time, you're just absorbed by it all, from, like, the production design to the lighting and costume design. But, um, I think what I really appreciated about this time is the use of color. Um, I, I, I love how, during the nighttime sequences, it is kind of really paying back, uh, to the silent film era with like the, the, the deep blue or like, if they're like in the carriage to going to, um, um, they're the, the, uh, emma, emma, uh, emma, corinne, uh, corinne's uh, and air taylor johnson's home, that's like, it's very orange and stark. So it's like, I think the lighting and coloring of this it was something that really gripped me this time. I was really into the costuming especially, kind of like having a bit more of a deeper look at like you know what, what count orlock's wearing and just kind of like how, like, how, that like informed his character or everything, or the way like, um, uh, ellen will flip her like long streak black hair during a possession scene.
Speaker 3:I think there's so many like, great, like elements in the craft that is. That is spectacular, that um, um, I think. I think what's put more on the screen, um, from head to toe, is, is, is, is, is gripping all the way through. And this again it's like what with all of like eggers films, it's like it gives me more of a curiosity to kind of explore, um, what else he's pulling from, like he mentioned, like I think there's like a alamo draft house video where he talks about queen of spades being like an influence and that's like a um, I think it's a russian um 1940s film and I remember seeing that the grand illusion and and seeing the influence he pulls from that into this in terms of a period piece with like how he uh, you utilize this snow and this is is quite fascinating.
Speaker 4:So yeah, I mean I I'd have to second that again like, coming out of the theater I was just like lighting the darkness of each scene and like not caring that it's too dark. Uh, my dad also, who I went saw this with, you know, as soon as we got out he was like that was that felt like a silent movie. So again, just like kind of harkening back to, to his influence and and and what he's trying to do with with that camera and and and the compositions. But I I I also mentioned this earlier I it's just the camera movements, the transitions are are always my favorite things and and in Edgar's films.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, I think just visually it's just obviously such a standout. I agree with Max, like the lighting was really something that I was paying attention to, where there's just some scenes where it's just candlelight and you can totally tell that it's just all, that's just natural lighting that's happening. And you know, I just I'm excited to re-watch it, just so I can absorb more of the story a little bit more, because I think I was very physically immersed in what I was just looking at. But I think you could say that with all of his films that they're all just visually very unique and just not something you see with your know, with your normal movie going experience.
Speaker 3:And to quickly jump on that too, like the way he utilizes long shots like the B. I love the opening where she comes out from the darkness and we move with her into in front of the window and we get the shadow of orlok as she's levitating is spectacular. Or something as simple as, like the staging and blocking um between hutter, um between um, uh, nicholas holt and aaron taylor, johnson with lily rose and emma corn in the background, um, or. Or even like when he got, when nicholas holt goes to the village and we circle around the villagers, kind of dancing around and playing music around Nicholas Holt, and then this dancer falls backwards as the camera moves over her, and I am so excited to see him do more of that.
Speaker 1:I am so excited to see him do more of that because he definitely seems like he likes the, the staying in the moment without feeling like you're cutting around too much. What I really liked in this movie was I think that he, robert Eggers, got a really good handle once again on how to use visual effects, which I think in the northman he he kind of lost, and who knows how much of that was him. There's been so many things about, like he didn't have final cut, yada, yada, yada. But you know, re-watching the northman and a lot of that like day-to-night stuff, that they're using the filters for shooting um late at night they're creating darkness, don't really hold up all that well for me.
Speaker 1:Um, the like coyote fox thing, that's like kind of shepherding along scars guards character, looks really bad um and and the just the whole, all the visions in that movie of like the family tree and everything, it's just weird. I didn't really find anything in this movie to be weird like the. The wolves are obviously cgi but those are kept in the darkness a lot and I thought that they looked pretty good. The rats, from what I could tell were, were real. I don't know if you guys felt like some of them were um computer generated or not, but I thought for a lot of the rat scenes that those were real rats and I thought that that really added a lot.
Speaker 1:Like probably not the ones that are, you know, eating um it was a real pigeon yeah, or the pigeon, you know uh, it was improvised pigeon, didn't know um, but but I mean for for a lot of it.
Speaker 1:I thought, okay, this is, this is really good. This is a good subtle use of of CGI here, of visual effects, and and I was happy to see that because going in I was a little wary that, um, you know, that's like the hardest thing I feel like for for develop, you know, for these filmmakers who are really trying to to develop their own personal sense of of style when it comes to these things and they get a bigger budget and all of a sudden it's just like, wow, this is so cool, I can do this on a computer, I can, I can shoot this this way, and it just doesn't always translate to, you know, to to the level of craft that we would expect someone like Robert Eggers to be operating on, would expect someone like robert eggers to be operating on, and so I was really happy with that, um, kind of across the board the visual effects in this film.
Speaker 1:I think that's like the.
Speaker 3:The best thing for like the northman, for him to doing a northman, is that he can like just go out and swing and see what works, what doesn't work yeah, he kind of purged a lot of ideas.
Speaker 1:I feel, yeah, yeah, um, okay. So, so legacy predictions here. I mean, we can look nearsighted and talk about the academy awards and then we can kind of try to project down the road, maybe five or ten years, like, do we feel like this will be one of the best films of the decade? Perhaps do we think that it will grow to overtake maybe the witch or the lighthouse or the Northman, depending on where you have those ranked? Like has it already for you when do you guys stand?
Speaker 4:Well, I mean nearsighted, I, I, I want it to be involved in awards, but the fact that you know, unfortunately it was nowhere to be seen, really on the golden globes, I don't know, I don't know if it's going to have, uh, a good push here to get into the Academy awards. You know you would, you would hope that some of that that you know under the line stuff, uh, the technical awards, as far as like costuming um cinematography sound, you hope that that comes for it but I don't know.
Speaker 1:It would be a big one, that would be huge. The lighthouse is nominated for for cinematography, so it's not unprecedented.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I believe it's the same cinematographer as as the light it's been the same for him since his short films.
Speaker 3:They've had a long-standing working relationship.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, I don't know. I hope so. I worry that it's come too late in the year for a real push. But who knows, the Bob Dylan movie is also getting a lot of talk now. But again I feel like that was getting, I feel like that was getting not nominations and talk about it before it even came out um, well and same with the brutalist which no one, aside from maybe justin, has seen and that's probably going to win best picture, maybe best actor and a lot of other things.
Speaker 4:That's very true, as well, um, but yeah, I think, going forward, I think I I have this probably third in in the four eggers films you know with. You know, the lighthouse is is probably my number one, the witch is probably two, this is three, and then the northman, um, but again, like those are like four of my favorite movies of the last 10 years. You know, I think the Northman was the year it came out. It was like two or one on my my top of the year that year. So this is definitely going to be towards the top of my list. This year, which is just this year in movies, is really, really surprised me, taking me by surprise. I remember, you know, alex, last year doing pods with you looking ahead to this year and me being super doom and gloom like this this year is going to suck in film. But, uh, I feel like we've, I I've been just so pleased and surprised by by a lot of the films that have come out. So, um, we did it, huh.
Speaker 1:We did it. I know we did it, Max.
Speaker 4:It's just why you got to do the work. And, yeah, it's. It's almost dumb to make predictions because you don't know, um but uh. But yeah, I think I think in 10 years I mean, am I going to? I'm going to be way more inclined to show someone this movie in 10 years, ahead of the 1922 Nosferatu. You and I bet you a again, depending how it all shakes out this weekend, I but I have a feeling gothic horror is going to be a thing that that starts happening again?
Speaker 1:um well, I I hope so, because justin made a great poll earlier in the crimson peak. Shout out because that's a movie that I think a lot of people went into I myself included, hoping for a quote unquote scary movie. And then it wasn't until and I own it now it's upstairs, but like it wasn't until my second and third rewatch where I was like I was just who cares if it's not quote unquote scary?
Speaker 4:this is a remarkable film here, yeah so, yeah, I think it's just going to grow with years it'll age like one. That's a funny analogy I was.
Speaker 2:I thought about that same thing because that's been my experience with his movies, um, especially with the witch, where it just the more I understood, like you know the, the folklore and all that kind of stuff that is really tied into these films and there's so much to learn, and then it the more if you're into you're into stuff like that, like the occult, and you know that kind of darker thing, darker stuff. I think that these kind of movies just become more fascinating over time the more you grow as a person and like your personal interest, I guess, and that's been my experience with um, with the northman and the witch, whereas, like, the more I know, the more I just appreciate about it and I'm like this is so fucking cool, like this is like really rooted in some like actual history, and so I, I mean, I would hope that this is kind of like what max said like I would be much more inclined to show somebody you know and introduce them to Nosferatu with this, because it's just more modern. Um, I don't have any, uh, experience seeing any of the original stuff. I've never read Dracula and I've also, um, not seen the original Nosferatu, but, um, you know for a, you know, for a new generation of film lovers this is gonna be like classic Nosferatu movie for them, because it's hard to, you know, if you're not really dedicated to it, to reach for a silent film.
Speaker 2:That is just a little. You know, it's old, I mean, there's so much history and appreciation for it. But, um, yeah, I think this, these movies just do get better with with time and um, yeah, I'll be curious to see. But, like you know, with what max said it's, it is hard to like predict because you just never know like what's gonna happen. You know I do.
Speaker 1:I do think that it's interesting because it could go further than what you're saying, even as it, and not just be a a new classic in the vampire canon. But I mean, I've told some people that, like I already know, I already know people in my life who will make this their entire personality over the next like six months, and that this movie will be on for for worse, like on shirts at hot topic and I don't know if it's going to get the full, like Edward scissorhands nightmare on Elm street or, excuse me, nightmare before Christmas treatment, but kind of be like a beacon for people who, who search for that Gothic storytelling and that connection between like the dark and the melancholy. But also it is, um, you know, an outlet for me, and so I I think it could, I think it could really have some legs in that, in that sense, as far as being like ingrained in not just the movie culture but just pop culture in general yeah, no, I, I, I completely agree with everyone's assessments here.
Speaker 3:I think, um, you know my introduction to nasaratsu, I think, with most people our generation, was the spongebob episode where he's flicking the lights and it's like what is this guy? Who is this guy?
Speaker 1:that's like it's most popular review on letterboxd right now. It's just somebody that's like where's spongebob?
Speaker 2:yeah, robert like came out and literally said that that is he attributes spongebob to like introducing our generation to nosferatu.
Speaker 3:Yeah, episode like watching that's so funny I think that definitely helps it, like in terms like, oh, like yeah, if you hadn't, like, if you're not in the scene, or like don't know, like you know the the history of like yeah, vampires are not surrounded to a cinematic degree, like the name itself evokes, like, I think, a nostalgic pull, being like oh wait, I remember that thing from from this weird cameo that showed up in in spongebob. Um, but uh, I do think it opens the door to like people, like who are, who are pulled in by the movie, to then look back at, like maybe the novel or the original film or other offshoots of like dracula, to to a point and I guess, like, yeah, looking at it in a in a bit more of a critical eye. It's like you know them setting it up so late in the year, in december, outside of the christmas nod, um, yeah, I was thinking, oh, they're gonna present this as like a um, as an oscar or awards contender, and I don't think it has that much legs outside of um technical elements. I, I think lily rose is so good in that that she should be recognized, but, um, you know, I think there's already a lot of great um leading actresses, um in the running already and between like anora and and brulist and to a degree, wicked.
Speaker 3:I think nasaradu is a little lower um in terms of that poll, but I do think it's going to be appreciated over time. And um, um, yeah, I, I think it's got like um a a good long run ahead for itself. And I remember I re-watched the northman recently with commentary, and I remember being lukewarm on the Northman at the time and on a rewatch I loved it more and I was like, damn OK, I really appreciate the craftsmanship and, just like you know, the storytelling here. And the same goes for like rewatching Nosferatu today, again my least favorite right now. But it could interchange between that and the Northman, just because I think you know his four films are so strong on their own right now.
Speaker 1:So Max, I got a, I got a question for you here, and everyone else feel free to weigh in as well. Better three named performance by a leading actress in a horror film this year, no tiger free.
Speaker 4:Listen, both of them should be up for Oscar, for gold statues, because they are doing a lot of similar things Like the possession shake and stuff is incredible. I would say probably Neil Tiger, because Really Well the whole movie is.
Speaker 3:I mean mean she's almost in every shot of the movie yeah, I think I think what lily rose is doing, though, like the, the, the switch between like the melancholy to the frantic and glee is so like ever building and then like, and neil tiger is like I, that's, she's the best part of the first omen. I, I really enjoyed the first omen, but she is like, yeah, the standout, and but it's it's more of a direct pull from possession, whereas, whereas I think what lily rose is doing is a lot more just like vibrance throughout the whole movie in terms of like she's like there's like elements where she's like contorting her body on the bed and like pretty much like delivering a linda blair performance on top of, like this possession pole. So like, I think both are great. I just think lily edges her a bit more if, uh, in that regard uh, also wait, erica.
Speaker 1:What do you think?
Speaker 2:oh yeah oh, I was just I was just nodding because I kind of tied that right in with, like what, what justin just said about the linda blair comparison, because I thought the same thing when she was having her possession moment on the bed. I was really feeling that same energy. But I don't know, I mean I haven't re-watched the first omen. Um, I've only seen it the one time and I loved it. I mean just amazing performances. But, um, I'll have to re-watch it and kind and I don't know see where I stand, I guess. But I I kind of, I don't know, I'm like leaning towards Justin's perspective.
Speaker 1:Both both films in the uh Ralph Einsohn extended.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I was just going to say that. Two of the best horror movies of the year and, uh, no one connected tissue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's.
Speaker 3:That's just one last thing I want to touch on with. That is it's been like what max, you mentioned earlier about the gloom and doom of 2024 just looking at this whole year, it's been one of my favorite films, favorite years in film. Like, not only have we gotten a lot of great films and we got a lot of spectacular horror films. There's horror films I wasn't crazy about, but they were doing things that a lot of horror films in the past weren't doing. They were taking swings.
Speaker 3:Some worked better than others and you know, like I I think, yeah, naomi scott is terrific and smiled to, or, um, margaret wally and demi moore's insane and um and uh the substance like there's so many great horror performances from top to bottom, michael monroe, even. Like there's so many like great horror performances, uh, throughout the year, um, that, like you know, they all like deserve um praise, um, from top to bottom. Like, again, everyone's just like it's been such a good year for, I think, film, despite kind of the turbulent time that we're kind of living in with the industry and, you know, the future of film.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think one. One last note on legacy I think this Nosferatu might be the, the gateway drug into Eggers, the rest of his filmography, right, like if you're coming in blind. I mean, I was able to take both of my parents christmas morning to see this movie and like they were, they were in, like, and they would have never gone to see the lighthouse or the northman, or can you imagine uh, um, I, I can't.
Speaker 1:I can't actually because I took my mom to the lighthouse and I can't believe her. I got her to go to another.
Speaker 4:So yeah, I think, if you're coming to the filmography blind, I think Nosferatu is a is a great way to jump in.
Speaker 3:And and then, and then go from there. We took my family years ago to a Christmas morning screening of uncut gems and I'm like, oh, this would be a fun time and sandler and I was like I watched that movie with my parents and absolutely regretted it yeah, when he's in the closet texting, it's the most uncomfortable I've ever been with my family. Oh, it's a tough one that's that's pretty good.
Speaker 1:Okay, any final thoughts here on Nosferatu before we bid it adieu.
Speaker 4:Go see it in a huge theater. My theater was packed too, just so great to see it with a sold out crowd.
Speaker 1:I think this is where we clear out for Erica now.
Speaker 2:Oh no, I definitely would agree to see it in a theater. It's one of those movies that I feel like you know, unless you've got a really killer setup at home, but it's, it's meant for the big screen. Um, the darkness with it all. It feels very like I. I think seeing it in a theater is the best move and I, you know, I just encourage people to get out and see it. What?
Speaker 1:happened, yeah, however.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I shared something similar but not quite as bad as her Just a PSA to all people. When you're going to the movies and you don't often go to the movies just like have read the room Just shut up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, read the room.
Speaker 1:Have some respect. I like I get it that on an opening day, on a holiday like Christmas, you're going to get a ton of people out there that just aren't common to the space of a movie theater common to the space of a movie theater, but like I had, maybe in a pack theater at the grand cinema that sits like 80 folks, maybe 90 folks, there's probably 30 or 40 and I'm not exaggerating different times where people got up and walked the aisle to go to the bathroom and come and sit back down. So just one door that that, you know, sheds light on the entire theater opening and shutting, opening and shutting, opening and shutting. So that was bad, but nothing like what erica had to endure her first time.
Speaker 2:Well, my experience seeing nosferatu is actually a two-parter, because I did have tickets to go yesterday afternoon on christmas and um have had had my tickets for, honestly, since it they were released and um, super packed theater. It was a smaller theater at the galaxy and gig Harbor. Um and um, I was sitting next to a couple who were just there was a I was, I mean, I, I think, at the galaxy. There is definitely an older crowd there, um, but I was sitting next to an older couple and I mean, to make it super brief, I had to leave about an hour into the movie cause I was just so removed from it at that point because the gentleman next to me took a phone call right before the movie started. Like, literally, as the you know know, galaxy does their um, their little, their spiel on like no talking and texting it. It's like this guy, a video of the guy answering a phone and he's like it's my mom, you know, and like it's kind of funny and the dude is literally on the phone while this is happening. I I kind of sat there and was just like you're serious right now, but you know, I'm like okay, well, it's not the movie started yet. But he hung up right as the the movie started, um, and then his wife answered a phone call in the scene where the crossroads was happening, like the most beautiful scene in the whole film, um, that was where she literally answered a phone call at full volume and was like who is this? Oh yeah, I'm watching a movie. And then, and in between the two phone calls, there was absolute like non-stop talking, um, like I, I kid you not, he was making her itch his back and was going right there, like right in the middle, like get it in the middle, and like I was so confused what was happening and I I mean, I never shush people, but I told my friend I was like I am entering my villain era this next year because I'm not going to like bite my tongue anymore at the movie theater, because this is not the first time this past week that I have had to shush somebody.
Speaker 2:Because I went and saw Wicked again last week and there was a family there with, you know, kids who are probably in high school. They were talking at full volume and my sister-in-law hadn't seen wicked yet it was. They were talking during some of like the most beautiful songs and she had to shush them and it's just like you know. So I literally I've never left a movie theater like halfway through a movie before, like unless it was really bad, but that I even then I usually I don't ever do that um, but I left because at this point, I mean, the movie is so atmospheric and it is such a you know, something you really want to like immerse yourself in, which is why I think going to the theater is just the best bet to see stuff like this.
Speaker 2:But when people next to you are, just they have no like awareness of other people and how loud you're talking. And then you know, on top of that, just moving around and like kind of to Alex's point, like sure, maybe they're not talking, but you getting up like every five seconds or just moving around so much it's distracting.
Speaker 1:We're like trying to get every kernel out of the bottom of your popcorn.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, like we're not here to listen to you eat dinner calm I.
Speaker 4:I hope you reported these people to the police yeah, my, my friends said the same thing like a crime.
Speaker 2:It should be like an actual hate crime. But yeah, that was another thing. He had a bag of popcorn and you know, please, like, if you're going to eat popcorn in the theater, like that's fine, but there's a dignified way to like reach your hand into the bag, like you don't have to crumple up the top of it and then try to bury your hand through that like open it up. They make it pretty easy for you guys. You know, like it's all good. But yeah, shout out to Gig Harbor, the Galaxy. They were super cool and didn't even hesitate to just like offer me a refund. But also like send someone in there right away. And I hate to be a snitch, but you know I was just like dude, like it was just unbelievable.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have dealt with that kind of stuff going to packed theaters, but I'm starting to. Normally I love a packed theater, I love being with a bunch of people, but honestly this is just the. You know me getting a little older and maybe more like grouchy, but I would prefer to see it with like I mean I went this morning at nine, thirty in the morning. Prefer to see it with like I mean, I went this morning at nine 30 in the morning and even still there was a quite a bit of people and another couple sat right next to me and they started just kind of like talking through the trailers and I was like, nope, don't even do this to me, there's new trailers out. I haven't seen them yet. I switched my seat real quick, so just kind of a bummer and a PSA to everyone out there.
Speaker 2:I love that people who don't normally go to the movies are going out and seeing movies, especially something like Nosferatu. But please just use common sense and, like what Alex said, read the room You're reading Also always report these people to the manager.
Speaker 4:Yeah, as a former movie manager, movie theater manager, particularly at the Galaxy Theater in Gig Harbor, yeah, the best part of our day was when we got to go into a theater with our light baton and fucking go find these people and tell them to shut up or we will throw them out of the building.
Speaker 2:I noticed the same manager was actually working this morning and she was super cool and they actually had an usher in my theater this morning. Um, I don't you know, no one was really talking or anything, but, um, I noticed they had a guy kind of like walk like watching out for things. I'm who knows if that's related, but yeah, I definitely feel like it's. This is where I miss some of the other theaters I used to go to.
Speaker 2:Like I used to go to Alamo Drafthouse a lot and man, if you were caught talking, you were, you were kicked out and they, they would be like even go as far as to be like I don't know if we want to have you come back here, like you'd be penalized, like for as far as to be like I don't know if we want to have you come back here Like you'd be penalized, like for sure, cause it's just like people are there to, and especially on Christmas, it's like dude, come on, I'm it's I don't know what a vibe killer. But yeah, I did see the first half of the movie twice, which, honestly, was kind of nice, but I was able to really take it in. But yeah, it's just kind of a crazy experience. Haven't had that happen in a while.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's. That's more horrifying than nostril too yeah that's the real scare absolutely
Speaker 3:you never know. If you know, you never know if you're gonna get like a real bad audience member near you. That's, that's the real terror. Yeah, I, I think, yes, the mentality of like treating it like your living room, like you know the, the like going to the certain theaters where they have the food or recliner seats, is great, but it's it's it's to a point or it's to a detriment to um making it more like a living room and thus you feel more entitled. And I think you know, um theater, theater efficacy is is so below the bar than what it should be. And you know, yeah, I wish there was more kind of encouragement from I don't know what theater staff goes through, but like, yeah, more ushers to kind of be present during, during that. Because, yeah, it's like, you know it's a, it's a communal experience and you know it only takes one person to kind of ruin the whole vibe.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, we need to be the change that we want to see in the world and I'm prepared, in 2025, to start giving out like letterboxd grades to my audience, to start giving out like letterboxed grades to my audience and just if I'm next to somebody who's annoying, at the end of the film, be like you got five.
Speaker 1:You got five out of 10 stars, or you know someone when they were just super quiet and be like thanks for being such a good seat mate. Like I'm prepared. Oh yeah, all right. Well, that'll do it for our conversation on Nosferatu and our episode today. Justin, we can't thank you enough for joining us.
Speaker 3:We hope you enjoyed your time on the show. I loved it. Thank you so much, and thanks for letting me uh get to uh talk about this uh delicious horror film it was uh, we have been living deliciously since 2016.
Speaker 1:We keep it going. If people want to see more of you or your work, where can they find you at?
Speaker 3:If you simply just go to justinrobertvinallcom, it's V as in Victor I-N-A-L-L. All my work is there and all my social media is there, from YouTube to TikTok, to Twitter, to Blue Sky, to all that jazz. Everything's there, and all my latest work and upcoming work is easily discoverable there.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. As for what's next here on the pod, we have two annual traditions ready to roll out over the next two weeks. What's next here on the pod? We have two annual traditions ready to roll out over the next two weeks. Be on the lookout for our best of episode, where Max Erica and myself will be joined by a rotating panel of guests to discuss our favorite films of 2024. And then, as the calendar turns to 2025, we will welcome in the new year by conducting our 2005 20 year anniversary draft episode. Can't wait for both of those recordings. We're still a little unsure on which episode we'll drop first, but nonetheless follow excuse the intermission on Instagram and the three of us plus Justin on letterboxd to track what we are watching. And we'll talk to you next time on ETI, where movies still matter. Thank you.
