Excuse the Intermission
Alex and Max take you on a journey through film with this discussion podcast about movies.
Excuse the Intermission
Warfare Review and Alex Garland's Resurgence
In the chaos of combat, what truly matters isn't the mission, but the harrowing moments that forever bind soldiers together. "Warfare," the latest from filmmaking duo Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza, strips away conventional war movie tropes to deliver something far more visceral and authentic.
Based on Mendoza's actual experiences as a Navy SEAL during the Iraq War, this relentlessly tense 96-minute thriller drops viewers into the middle of a mission gone catastrophically wrong. When two platoons become trapped in a hostile urban environment, what follows is a masterclass in sustained tension and raw emotional devastation. Unlike traditional war films that provide character backgrounds or political context, "Warfare" deliberately avoids explaining why these soldiers are fighting—it simply shows, with unflinching clarity, what happens when young men face the brutal realities of combat.
The film's exceptional sound design, crafted by Garland's longtime collaborator Glenn Freemantle, delivers an audio experience that shifts seamlessly between the chaotic cacophony of gunfire to the muffled, disorienting aftermath of blast trauma. Will Poulter leads a remarkable ensemble cast that includes Michael Galfianakis, Kit Connor, and Charles Melton, each delivering performances that capture not just the physical demands of warfare but the psychological toll of knowing death lurks around every corner.
What makes "Warfare" particularly significant is how it represents Garland's artistic resurrection following his controversial 2022 film "Men." By partnering with Mendoza and focusing on craftsmanship rather than heavy-handed metaphors, Garland has rediscovered his filmmaking voice. This transformation mirrors other celebrated director comebacks we've witnessed over the years—from Wes Craven's "Scream" renaissance to Spike Lee's triumphant return with "BlacKkKlansman."
Don't miss this opportunity to experience one of the most intense and authentic war films in recent memory. "Warfare" isn't just about combat—it's about bearing witness to the moments that forever change those who serve, and the brotherhood forged in circumstances most of us will never understand.
how's it?
Speaker 1:I'm alex mccauley I'm max fosberg I'm erica kraus and this is excuse the intermission a discussion show surrounding finding what was lost. Ahead. On this episode, the three of us will discuss alex garland and ray mendoza's new film warfare, and then talk about how garland has resurrected his filmmaking persona after his 2022 film men. That will lead us down a rabbit hole to highlight some other directors who we feel have made major comebacks in their career. So a lot to get to on this pod, which starts on the other side of this break. Hey guys, how are we doing today? It is a spring break around these parts. Erica, you're busy playing Dr Doolittle running around town.
Speaker 2:Dr Doolittle- oh, because of my job.
Speaker 1:Yeah don't even get me started on my day today.
Speaker 3:I fully crashed out today, as your students like to say, trying to chase some loose chickens around my client's house are chickens the most exotic animal you've ever encountered in your job?
Speaker 3:no, no um snakes, lizards like a long time ago, like when I used to do this a long time ago. People are probably like wondering what I'm talking about. I do, I'm a, I have a pet sitting sitting business, but, like a long time ago, I used to my clients had reptiles, which is cool, I mean super easy. But right, I guess, right now my most exotic yeah, like my clients, I mostly I'm taking care of their cats, but they also have chickens and they were. It was total anarchy.
Speaker 3:today they all just like fucking turned on me and, uh, I don't know what was in the air, but something crazy, so I can only imagine how I looked, trying to try to wrangle these chickens back in for 30 minutes chickens have kind of always scared me a little bit like people.
Speaker 1:You know they'll pick it up and you move it and you do the neck thing and its head stays still, I would never try to pick up a chicken. Interesting.
Speaker 2:Too close to a dinosaur. Too close they're so cute.
Speaker 1:All birds kind of freak out, the ones that are real Not the robot ones. And then, max, how are you doing? We're kind of getting ready for a boys trip, a bittersweet boys trip, here later this weekend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got boys weekend coming up, uh, which is exciting. I don't think I'm gonna be able to talk everyone all eight of us to go see sinners on orcas island, but uh, uh, yeah, no, uh, very excited we're. We're literally within like two weeks here of uh, of starting the engine and driving south. So, um, yeah, it's pretty, pretty, pretty wild. We got rid of another piece of furniture today. If anyone needs a couch, hit me up like come, come, get my couch. All sorts of things you've been throwing out vhs's dvds in our group chat not literally, maybe you
Speaker 3:have actually been throwing them out, but but offering them up, I should say yes, perfect, good, good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that will be really fun. Are you bringing any recording equipment up there? One last episode of 30-something, perhaps.
Speaker 2:That'd be interesting. Yeah, I was thinking about bringing my little DVR tape Hi8 tape camera. That would be cool. Yeah, we used it. It was part of a shoot last weekend out in Edgewood and we got to use that camera along with our cinema camera and I actually got an assembly cut of it done today and one of Chatter Network's own Timling is uh is the star of the show in this. It's pretty fun, but I I love the the usage of the mixed media and kind of found footage aspect of of this film.
Speaker 2:So, um, pretty cool, bring it yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I will for sure your little road clip-on guy too oh yeah, that'd be fun.
Speaker 1:I mean you will probably be the only sober people on this trip.
Speaker 3:So we might be able to get some really good content. Good content, yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so let's let's talk about warfare. The fifth film from Alex Garland is co-directed by Raymond Doza and based on Mendoza's experiences as a US Navy SEAL during the Iraq War in 2006. The film chronicles two platoons one which gets held up during a stakeout and then the other which eventually comes to their aid. The film is performing very well with audiences, despite a modest box office opening. Warfare received an A on CinemaScore, is currently at 93% on Rotten Tomatoes and holds a 3.7 on our beloved Letterboxd. So what did you guys make of Warfare? Erica, we'll start with you, since Garland is your guy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I loved it. I saw it yesterday and I really enjoyed it. I thought that it was, I mean, I don't know. I mean the sound was amazing. It was a real nail biter. It was actually very impressive, just everything they did with it. Um, and I'm glad I didn't have go into it with a lot of expectation either, cause I I feel like I saw a lot of people's like a lot of mixed reviews on it and people kind of maybe expecting something that it wasn't going to be, but I I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Uh, intense, right, I mean it is. It is such an intense film that probably reminds people who who saw something like Black Hawk Down or Saving Private Ryan in the theaters in the day akin to that kind of experience, even though it's even more stripped down than those. Right, there are no character arcs or character types. You don't know what the mission is, you don't know why they're there, and I think that's a really smart it's. It's really a reenactment of uh, mendoza's memories and the, the guys in the, the platoon's memories. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it was an astonishing piece. I thought I saw it in imax over in gig harbor and, um, I, I was just, I was blown back, you know every second, um, yeah, I really, really loved, loved this film there were a couple of moments in the movie that were almost like jump scares, because the tension is built so expertly.
Speaker 1:Uh, the first 30 minutes is really nothing but edging, and you know obviously that this mission's going to go awry and warfare no pun intended is going to ensue. And when that happens, especially when the first improvised explosive device goes off, shook me I can't even imagine in imax what it would have felt like through the little hole. Yeah, no, that was just that grenade.
Speaker 1:The grenade through the hole was really good too, because that's really our first moment walked outside, but yes, when they walked outside I lurched back in my seat, yeah look for the blood and the smoke that's a wild line, shout out. My guy will polter just like doing great stuff every internet boyfriend uh out there right now.
Speaker 1:Uh in this movie will polter michael uh galafindi kit connor really good young cast uh charles melton, like something else that reminded me a little bit of blackhawk down too, when I was watching him where I was like this could be one of those casts where people look back on it in five years and say, wow, look at all the, look at all the, the talent that was in this one film, much like black hawk down, 13 hours, an act of valor, were two movies that came to my mind because those are very non-fiction not that something like saving private ryan and black hawk down aren't non-fiction, but you do have a more character arcs like you mentioned in those films, whereas this does feel almost documentary, um, documentarian, and I I really love that about it. Erica, you calling it nail biting like I've been rubbing my thumb because it's so jagged, right now trying to like stand it back down.
Speaker 1:I just need to go get nail files. I saw this movie like three hours ago and I think finally just started to to come down off of it. I thought it was. I thought it was much like how the two of you said very intense, really well done.
Speaker 1:Glenn Fremantle is Garland sound guy who he has worked on um, who he's worked in collaboration with on annihilation, ex machina and most recently civil war, and so you know, I think we always like to find these little director recently civil war, and so you know, I think we always like to find these little director. And then um, you know tech people, combos and kind of tab them, like david fincher and kirk baxter, his editor, all these different people that you really feel like work hand in hand. Um, uh, the cinematographer for robert edgars right now is really cooking, and I feel like this guy, glenn freemantle, it's only a matter of time before he starts to get real recognition, perhaps like at the Academy Awards for something like sound design, because just incredible stuff in this movie. Once the action really starts and you're jumping back and forth between the fog of war and then you know like someone will be shell shocked and the sound will change and then gunfire picks back up or you're back um, just hearing the, the screams and the horrors of war. Incredible stuff.
Speaker 1:I mean I was I know because I kind of cased my theater walking out, um, that I was in there with probably some folks who have bravely served in the military before and I just couldn't imagine what they were thinking watching this movie.
Speaker 1:And so kudos all around to everyone involved in Mendoza, especially for being able to to. You know, I don't know if cathartic would be the right word, but that was something else I was thinking of the whole time, like what an opportunity, I guess to tell your story. And then I really thought, you know, I guess to tell your story. And then I really thought, you know, I want to get your guys's takes on what you thought of sort of the um, the, the, what would you call it? Like the um, the behind the scenes sort of stuff at the end, almost um, because a lot, of, a lot of people in the platoon chose to remain anonymous. So I don't know what you guys thought about that or if you felt, felt like um movie needed that at the end, or or just kind of any more thoughts sort of on the film.
Speaker 3:I love when movies have stuff like that. I'm a huge, uh, I love, I'm just a huge fan of war movies in general, especially like a nonfiction. You know, it's absolutely one of my favorite genres. And you mentioned active valor earlier and I just I just had to shout out that movie because I haven't seen that in forever, but it's so good.
Speaker 2:Mendoza was the stunt coordinator on that film Really Wow. Military consultant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a lot of like real military people who are the actors in that movie. But anyway, yeah, I I I thought I really liked you know them, kind of showing like making it more personal towards the end. I was reading that you know this movie is a love letter to Elliot from Ray, because Elliot does not remember anything from that day and Elliot is the, the man whose legs were really gnarled in the movie, the, the man whose legs were really gnarled in the movie. Um, he took the brunt of the, the explosion, aside from a couple, one of the other guys, um, and so I I did love like seeing the behind the scenes stuff, like the photos of them together with ray and elliot, and then elliot with his actor I can't remember, I don't know that guy's name.
Speaker 2:Cosmos something, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, I thought he was amazing. I I liked that there was like a mixture of like well-known actors and then some other guys that in here that I'd never seen before, or maybe they have been in stuff, that were just kind of flew under the radar a little bit. Um, but yeah, I I think that, like them, I reading that they chose to be anonymous because I read that they a lot of them are still serving um and so that they just kind of wanted to keep things still a little bit private um yeah that's the other thing.
Speaker 1:This, this is not that long ago yeah, no when, when this film's taking place.
Speaker 1:So it does have almost one of those um like zero dark 30 hurt locker, feel, kind of feel to it where you know us as millennials watching this, I was thinking like this is happening during my lifetime, you know I'm 16 years old, when, when this stuff is happening, um so really heavy too to kind of experience it in that light, you know, it's not like watching a vietnam movie or something set um kind of before we had come of age. So yeah, just for someone who's not connected to the military at all, except for some grandparents who served, like still such an emotional, emotional watch oh, yeah, really yeah.
Speaker 2:I teared up multiple times and, and, uh, and again, just like when those guys, when sam and elliot especially, are, you know, just screaming um because their legs are chewed up. It's, it's, it's visceral.
Speaker 3:It felt so real, I did love that, because I feel like we don't really see that often there's a lot of like you know there's maybe like the guys are breathing through it and stuff, but you don't really see that like a lot of that vulnerability of like that to me is like I feel like that's very real, of like these men and, like they mentioned, there was something burning in them and their legs and that one and then the other guy from um the team two came in and he was like yeah, that's the phosphorus, and it was just like that little detail kind of like showed like what like really further explained what they're feeling, like this their legs are not only just absolutely torn to shreds, but they're also feeling like they're on fire it made it like a full sensory experience watching the movie, hearing little details like that and then the two guys that were like manning the doors I can't remember what their names are, but there was one they both looked so they were in shock.
Speaker 3:Obviously I thought that the two of them were amazing, like just their facial expressions, and then the fear. There's something like really jarring to see, like grown men who are especially in the military, so rattled like that. I think that's why I get really emotional when I watch movies like this, because you, just like I, obviously can't even imagine going through something like that. You just like I, obviously can't even imagine going through something like that and seeing like the the facial expressions, the emotions and like the fear on their face, you know. And then some of them cry and like will polter's character is just trying to hold it together yeah, he's like I'm fucked up, I can't make decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great scene.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and his guy comes and is like, has anyone checked on you? And he's just like no. I mean it's just, oh my gosh. I thought these guys were incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was pretty wild. I was listening to an interview with Ray Mendoza and he said that Kit Conner, the guy who played Tommy, he's one of the guys covering the door. He said that Kit Conner, the guy who played Tommy, he's one of the guys covering the door and kind of is the surrogate for like fear, because it was Tommy's first like inaction mission in real life and like that's kind of how everyone reacts the first time they're in combat. And yeah, he said Kit Conner was able, because it's not like he had a monologue or anything, he's just doing this with his face and his facial, uh expressions.
Speaker 2:Another crazy thing about this film it was shot in 15 days and everything that you see on screen is either one, take one or take two. Um, so they, they thought about doing like unknowns or drawing straight from the military for the cast, like act of valor in the beginning. But once they decided they were, they were going to, uh, you know, make it, you know, for a cheaper price and and streamlined like that, they decided to go with with actual, uh, known actors, um, but uh, pretty amazing that you know, I think they spent maybe five to seven days rehearsing and then you know, and then they go shoot for 15 days and like it's pretty wild that, uh, these guys came together as a cohesive unit and you can really see and feel that on screen. But then also to to just be in like this really intense, you know 96 minute movie and and be able to do that in one or two takes Pretty, pretty remarkable.
Speaker 1:Well, there's something that feels so authentic about it, and we got a glimpse of some of that blocking in the rehearsal stuff at the pre-credits scene there and I can imagine as one of those actors when you have the real guy or you have someone like Mendoza there with you and you can kind of see he's like when you're coming, you know there's no language attached to any of it, no audio or anything but when they're talking about um, or they're showing them coming out of the house and then storming the, the street and and where you would be looking and you know you're up, you're down, you're, you're left, you're right, and then you go and I was like the behind the scenes please release this on physical right, because the behind the scenes stuff I'm sure is going to be pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 1:I will also say that I feel like there can be something about a movie that is so real like this that then almost begins to feel exploitive, because I'm like but there there can be.
Speaker 1:I didn't experience it with this movie, but just thinking like because these are people's real lives that we're watching, like this isn't necessarily here for our entertainment, no, it is much more there for um, I think, just like awareness and and their own self-doing, so that, like I kind of mentioned earlier, like if Mendoza and Garland wanted to come together to make this not only for Elliot but for for all of their brothers in the military and the families of those who have served and who have lived through real combat, like I think it was so successful and and done in a way that felt so. I like saying something like tasteful even doesn't really feel right because again, like they're just showing the the real accounts. Like it says at the beginning, this is from their memories and so like I love something like black hawk down, one of my favorite movies, um, you know, of all time, and I'm sure a ton of people feel validated by by that movie.
Speaker 1:But that just feels way way more hollywood it feels a lot more hollywood and and that movie is still so tactile as well, um, but I think it goes back to what eric was talking about with just like the screams and being trapped in the downstairs, like living room of of this apartment the whole time, and how propulsive it all is, because in in a movie like Black Hawk Down, where there are those scenes like when they're trying to um operate on on the one guy's artery and they're trying to pinch it like that scene is so intense.
Speaker 1:But that's, that's really one scene Like the, the segments of this movie that involve just like some of the most intense military warfare in terms of like gore and and what the human body can look like after it's been, you know, thrown through the ringer, like the, the makeup and the effects on on the, on especially elliot's legs once they have taken the surgical scissors and cut off his pants, my goodness, like really really impressive filmmaking and, in terms of you know, the, the technical achievement that that went into this from the entire crew yeah, another thing mendoza has said is, like you know, that a lot of military movies also try to tackle, like, the why, where this, this exercise, was all about not telling the why, but the what.
Speaker 2:Unique in in in a genre that has been around since the beginning of movies. Um, because there is usually a, a cutaway scene to, you know, the ceo in a in a war room, uh, saying we got to get our guys out of there, or something like that, and where this? This is just literally about being trapped in a house yeah, and uh yeah, and and and and the fact that the movie ends.
Speaker 2:I thought the movie you know the way it ends, where they just they get in in the tanks, in the bushmaster and the bradley's, the bradley's and they, and they just drive away, yeah, and they just leave and everything just goes quiet. You know, some of the uh, of the people that they are fighting come out into the streets, yeah, and it's just like oh, wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's over.
Speaker 2:It's over. Who knows, we probably never go back to that place at that time in this war, in this conflict. So just again like a really stark and kind of unique way to end a movie as well yeah, um, okay, so.
Speaker 1:So kudos to, to everyone involved, and and alex garland especially, because what he has done. And now it's funny because we decided with we decided to do this episode format before we had seen the movie, and, and so we were putting all our chips on the table here and banking on Garland to deliver, after what we had seen from him last year with Civil War. So he's back now and that's really the premise of this episode. And it's so interesting Because when you really dive in and start to research different directors who have hit a rough patch in their career, it's difficult for them to reinvent themselves in such a short time, and that's what Garland has been able to do. So his career, of course, starts with his film or his novel, the Beach, being adapted by Danny Boyle back in 2000. And that becomes, um, you know, a bit of a cult classic, I would say. And then he works with Boyle again, writing the script for 28 days later, which, by the way, trailer played before, um, my screening, at least uh warfare.
Speaker 1:And as soon as I saw it, as soon as I knew what it was, it was immediately like look down, look away, focus on my popcorn um do not watch anymore.
Speaker 3:I had a hard time not watching I mean I, I looked down a lot for it too, but I this is the movie of the year. I mean honestly I'm saying it right now this is the summer movie. Quick.
Speaker 1:People are saying uh side tangent to, and by people, I mean honestly, I'm saying it right now. This is the summer movie. Quick, people are saying uh side. Tangent to, and by people, I mean me. I think we've stopped doing red band trailers at r-rated movies, because not only was the 28 days later trailer very violent, so was the ballerina trailer that I saw. I believe the word shit was said in the ballerina trailer, and there was something else that I saw as well that involved a lot of blood and I thought to myself there's no red band before the movie starts here with the MPAA.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know what? There's something about seeing the red band come up from the mpaa before you're getting a red band trailer. That used to get me so excited yeah it really did um and so, yeah, I don't know no, no, bring back bring back the red band trailers. If we've taken them away from r-rated films, at least you know, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still showing, like they're still on youtube, I'm sure yeah, or like if it's a pg-13 movie, like if you're going to go see, you know, megan 2 in a couple of months.
Speaker 1:And then there's going to be a trailer for something else that comes out that's rated r and it's going to be a red band trailer. Then you still might get the I don't know the traditional warning. I digress, um and so then. So then garland becomes a feature film director himself with Ex Machina back in 2015,. Really becomes one of the pillar films for the A24 distribution and production company, right when they're starting to make a name for themselves. Follows that up with Annihilation, adaptation of a beloved novel from the Southern Reach trilogy, and at that time he is one of the hottest new directors in Hollywood and making pretty interesting science fiction thrillers. And then 2022 happens and he's working again with a 24 and comes out with the film men. Now you're just going to have to trust us on this. Erica, I know you've read a lot, but men was so not good.
Speaker 3:I don't doubt it. That's why I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1:Which is the I think you know like, as, as someone who loves Alex Garland movies, it is maybe good just to protect yourself from that experience yeah, we went like with a group of friends group of friends, because it was a big deal we were.
Speaker 2:There were women too.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, we were very excited and we all walked out so angry um, like immediate, I think maybe one or two of us tried to maybe kind of say, oh, it wasn't. It was like okay or something. I remember being like that was pretty bad. That was like I don't think I can defend that in any way.
Speaker 1:And the narrative started to become that Alex Garland is really interested in doing one thing, it seems in his films which men all of a sudden brought to the ugly forefront, which was he is subjecting all these different female lead characters in his films to trauma, to try to tell us how women experience and process trauma. Because you then look back at annihilation and that is a huge theme of that movie. You look back at ex Machina, and it's a huge theme of that movie. You look back at ex machina, and it's a huge theme of that movie, and it got to be a little confusing, upsetting, disappointing. All these different, like not so great feelings were attached to alex garland movies, at least for me. Uh, diminishing returns then on annihilation and next Machina, whenever I would see it get brought up because of what happened with men, and I don't know is am I crazy for thinking this, or is this where we were in 2022?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think. Uh, I remember ripping that movie, uh a good one, and and you know, honestly, he still can't really help himself in Civil War a little bit A little bit. There's one moment where he kind of goes there.
Speaker 1:Are you talking about the dress scene? Yeah, when he's like if Kristen Dunst would just put on a pretty dress this would all be okay. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, so yeah's, it's really interesting. But overall I think civil war and and now warfare, and even though you know he's a co-director on warfare and he's come out and said like this was the best experience directing a movie I've ever had because my role was so diminished- you know, I I it kind of feels like he is, was I I, I, I, I I.
Speaker 2:I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I movies, uh, anymore, uh, and, and because he's enjoyed writing for other directors this year, um, but you know, I I do think in 2022 it was kind of just like it's over and you know, at least, at least we got the beach and annihilation every now and then, right, yeah, so his work on the scripts maybe for 20 days later?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so, um, but yeah, you know, civil war then comes out and is a huge hit in my, in my eyes, it really brings him back to the forefront and then now with, with warfare, you know, if he decides to come back to the director's chair which I I hope he does now, right where in 2022, I I wouldn't have really cared how do you feel about all this, erica?
Speaker 3:if that man stops directing I will kill myself. I'm just kidding, I, I don't know. I mean I'm I'm glad I haven't seen men, I guess. But now I am curious to see it, just out of curiosity, because at this point I am so on board with him as a writer, as a director.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about this yesterday during Warfare. He is scratching the itch for me, especially when it comes to horror, because this is horror like cause, this is like horror, but not treated. I mean, it's like I. I described warfare as like war horror, you know, and like even civil war, felt like a horror movie to me.
Speaker 3:And I'm like this is I. I he's combining two of my favorite genres. I mean, he is like I loved annihilation. It was weird. It was like just something I'd never seen before. Ex machina is amazing, um, but yeah, I he's like.
Speaker 2:I just was like really sitting there thinking about it yesterday, just thinking I'm like this guy is like giving me exactly what I want in film right now, and so I would be devastated to see he's, he's, yeah, he's, he's threatened to not do movies anymore because that it's so hard to get him made and so hard to do what he wants to do, his you know his way, and all that stuff he, he did. So on this interview I was listening to, um he, he did say there is something that he might direct but it's unfilmable for at least a year um so if which is not a challenge, he is um shy to approach because that's what people said about annihilation forever.
Speaker 1:That right, you cannot adapt this book into a movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how that makes sense so, yeah, whatever, whatever that means I don't know, I don't know what unfilmable means, I, maybe there's a place he needs or something I or an actor or something, I don't know um, but yeah, he, he has now said multiple times that you know, I remember when civil war came out, he, he was saying I'm, I'm co-directing my next movie with uh warfare and then after that I'm, I'm done directing um. So that would be a huge loss, I think. Now because he is, he's back, yeah, I do feel like, and especially, you know, it's interesting to think about this exercise because directors do go through ebbs and flows, right, and like, not everything you make is going to be a hit, not everything you make is going to be good, and I would hate to see to lose him after only, I think, six films that he's directed Um, because a it's it's just way too early, like I think. I think he's got legs that could. He could become one of these old modern masters, right.
Speaker 1:Well, and what he's done with Civil War and warfare and I think that this is a huge part of his comeback is that he has he's learned a new pitch, worked in the off season on some stuff and he seems to have left the science fiction um, you know, like trauma, dump female lead story arc behind and he's turned his attention to and of civil war. I think is kind of the perfect like Goldilocks marriage of of letting that go, still having Kaylee Spanian, kirsten dunst at the forefront of that film, but really leaning into these visceral, high-paced, really intense, incredible craftsmanship like war movies and no one is really making films like that anymore, and so he has a nice little corner sort of carved out for himself now yeah, I mean I would love to see him go back to some sort of science fiction thing, I mean I'd be a little nervous, but sure, and and totally I, and I'm not talking about like annihilation 2 or anything, but yeah, I mean he wrote sunshine too right he did write um.
Speaker 1:I don't know if he wrote sunshine and it's obviously a daniel boyle film, right?
Speaker 3:um, but he did write.
Speaker 1:He did write sunshine, and he also wrote dread, yeah, dread solid dreads, great, uh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would love to see him go back into some sort of science fiction, whether it's in space or just some sort of dystopian future which again, like we're gonna kind of see that with with 28 months, years, years, uh, later. And you know he's alex garland. I'm sure he was on set like for that film, I you know who knows if he got to maybe direct a sequence or something. But um, but yeah, I, I hate that he's like threatening yeah not directing anymore.
Speaker 3:You did say, like you made a good point, he's still, he feels really new.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like. To me he feels like a really like young, like like new director.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, and I'm like listening to you say this and I'm like I'm absolutely not.
Speaker 1:I mean it would be like if Ari Aster, robert Edgars also said I'm done after five movies.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like no, no, no, Hold on a second. Like you, to me it just feels like he's found his footing with, like, civil war and warfare and I'm like I would like more war movies please Like I don't.
Speaker 3:I mean I was I had the same like argument with myself yesterday too. I'm like I want to see like great, now we have like the next great like war director, you know. And I'm like no, he's a creative man, like he can do whatever, like let's see him do something else. But I mean selfishly, I would definitely take more Civil War warfare stuff, like I would happily take one of those every year, like you know. But um, I, I think him in science fiction, I I'd like to see that too. You know I um just going back to that, I don't know. I mean he's really like it just feels like he found his footing and I am not done. Well, yeah, not even close.
Speaker 2:The other. I mean, and hopefully you know, even if he doesn't direct, he at least continues to write, because he's such an accomplished writer and really a a super talented writer. Um and so to to be both that and also to direct. You know, five out of your six movies are fucking banners.
Speaker 1:Like and was a showrunner for Devs, a great television series. Devs was fantastic, yeah. So the reason why we mention all this and why we're celebrating this moment here for Alex Garland is because it is, like we said, less common than you would think for a director and I like the way Max put it Everybody has kind of your, your bumps in the road or whatever. You have movies that are less success successful than others. But there's a lot of examples over the course of the last hundred years of movie making where once you do hit a rough patch and you have a movie flop, you really don't get a chance to to come back and to have your civil war into warfare moment, where then the three of us can get together, people around the country can get together and say they're back, like we're so back, and so I have just like a few examples here of of people recently who haven't gotten another chance since they've had something flop and we're on a real, real hot streak and we just haven't heard from them since. And then maybe guys who are close to coming back, um, and and then we will get to our lists of people who we feel like have pulled off what Alex Garland has accomplished here but feel like have pulled off what Alex Garland has accomplished here.
Speaker 1:But um, and actually I'm going to I'm going to take it back to to maybe the first, best example of this Cause I did a lot of digging and found a director by the name of Martin Breast. Does this name ring a bell to either of you? I've heard this name, martin Breast. So here are the films that Martin Bre breast made in the 80s and 90s scent of a woman, pretty good, beverly hills, cop, classic meet joe black, midnight run. These are all really really good, strong films.
Speaker 1:And then in the early 2000s he makes a movie called gili and has basically never been heard from again and gilly, of course, one of the most famous bombs critically, box office, audience wise of all time, and it's a really good case of how one movie can derail your entire career. Now, more recently, we've seen this with guys like Andrew Dominick who, coming off of the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford and then goes in to killing him softly or maybe killing him softly came first and then assassination of Jesse James, but was tagged as like a really cool art house director and then a couple of years ago makes blonde art house director and then a couple years ago, makes blonde and that movie fails and andrew dominic has now kind of disappeared, been real quiet.
Speaker 1:Um, noah bomback, a director who's been working for decades and has a storied career and I'm sure is doing just fine, living his best life with greta gerwig and writing with her and still thinking about and planning to make movies in the future. However, since white noise has been real quiet and we haven't really seen what's going to, there's no news of what's next for Noah Baumbach, so that's a little bit concerning Chloe Zhao coming off of a lot of successful independent films, then gets her shot at nomad land and now say what you will? We certainly have about nomad land and that film's overall success. However, she wins best director that year at the academy awards and then follows that up with the eternals, and now it's like when are we going to see chloe zhao again?
Speaker 1:Um, tough break for. And then this hurts me because I'm sure he is also doing just fine and doesn't need to pick up a camera ever again. However, um, selfishly, I want to see what else peter jackson has in the tank. Yeah, but coming off of the lord of the rings movies, when he's on top of the world, and then he goes into king kong, a movie that we love and that I think is universally pretty well respected. But then he makes the lovely bones in the three hobbit movies and has been quiet ever since.
Speaker 2:Well, and now I'm sure he's good, he's, he's gone into like documentary, right, like he did the world war one, they shall not pass documentary. And then he does the get back Beatles documentary, which are both huge, but you're you're totally right Like we haven't seen him in the director's chair of a narrative big high fantasy film or or night not even high fantasy film, or or not not even high fantasy right.
Speaker 1:Heavy link creatures is a fantastic film from the 90s, go back and do more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah. I would love to see peter jackson come back, but you know he's he's just making models and fucking new zealand, and that's what I'm saying he's probably so happy, but selfishly, where have you been?
Speaker 1:yeah, um, and and that's not to say that the because the hobbit movie still made a ton of money. So they're, quote unquote successful. But if that, if those go down as being like his, his final movies, his, his final projects, it'll be too bad. Yeah, and then. And then we have a couple of guys here who I think are close to having their moment, or their moments, right around the corner. They've already shown us that there may be back on an upward trajectory after a low point, but we have to see it twice, kind of like what we've now seen with Garland, where it wasn't just like a flash in the pan. Oh, you're back with Civil War, but then warfare isn't as great. So those directors that I've written down here are Ben Affleck, who was cranking there in the 2010s 2010s.
Speaker 1:yeah, and then made Run by Night, Run All.
Speaker 2:Night Live by. Night Live by.
Speaker 1:Night.
Speaker 2:It's so bad.
Speaker 1:It's really bad. It's so unfortunate and then kind of goes away for a while but then comes back with Air two years ago and I really enjoyed Air. I think a lot of people enjoyed air. So if we get Ben back in the director's chair, I think that hopefully we can have an Aflac Assance.
Speaker 1:And once again, once again, well he's done some acting wise, he's done some writing wise, but to get him fully back as a director, and there's been rumors for a long time about him directing a movie about the making of the film Chinatown. That would be a narrative film and I think would be really cool. Uh, gore Verbinski someone who we defend on this pod um till the day we die is who, who we will defend on this pod till the till the day I die is is really close, I think to to his comeback. He has a movie coming out this year but after the pirates of the caribbean films the first three, which are amazing, um, and then, uh, some other really fun stuff there. He did the american remake of the ring, like. Look up his filmography. Rango is really cool, like as an animated film.
Speaker 1:But then he made the lone Ranger adaptation and that tanked his career Really did, but then he came back with a cure for wellness and then we haven't heard from him since a cure for wellness, and so hopefully his, his movie that comes out this year will be good, and then it might be too early to tell. With this one Me personally, I think she's in kind of a tough spot right now, but hopefully comes back. Uh, next year is emerald finnell, because promising young woman was so good, like one of my favorite movies of the decade, and then salt burn just felt so derivative and just such a carbon copy of so many other films that have come before it, namely something like the Talented Mr Ripley, and I know she has a movie coming out in 2026, which hopefully brings her back.
Speaker 3:Wuthering Heights. That's the film. Yes, I'm in.
Speaker 2:Margot Robbie yeah.
Speaker 1:And Jacob Elordi, I know is back in that, but I think after Saltburn we're in a little bit of a rocky spot.
Speaker 3:You think so. You think you don't like saltburn.
Speaker 1:Nope um, so yeah, those are any other people that you feel like kind of fit the bill. Those were the names that I had, or or that we could put into different parts of this pie chart of like had it and lost it.
Speaker 2:A hall of shame, like uh-oh, or like I have close I have some old guys who, like they, just might be too old to come back. But you know, immediately I thought of my beloved john carpenter. Uh, the ward is the last thing he has directed.
Speaker 1:That movie is not good, despite having my girl alicia it.
Speaker 2:Um and uh was actually made, I believe, here in Washington. Uh, the ward, um, and you know he, he actually has been, because it's some sort of I think it's the things what 40th anniversary this year, um that's Amber heard who's in the ward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, amber heard um. That's Amber Heard who's in the ward. Yeah, alicia Cuthbert. Yeah, amber Heard. Tough moment, tough moment in history.
Speaker 2:And so he's kind of been out at different conventions and festivals and he has kind of said that he has interest in making another film, which would be great. Apparently he's going to score bonjour, horror movie um, which you know is good for him.
Speaker 1:Uh, to maybe, maybe get the the gears running again well, and he is also really old, so I don't know. And cody both, his son, cody carpenter, did the score for the first david gordon green halloween film and that score still rips. It's not the original, but it's exactly what you want from a re-imagination.
Speaker 2:Right. So I would love to see Carpenter get one more bite at the apple here and try and not leave us with the ward. John McTiernan is someone who came to mind predator, the diehard movies in the nineties, 13th warrior you know there's a there's a fan base out there for that, but then he does rollerball oh, which is dean kane a huge flop which is tough a remake of, like a beloved 70s kind of sci-fi action movie yeah, and it was just not, it was I.
Speaker 2:I just don't think he could have done that movie justice in 2002 or whatever that was I'm looking it up, right, he does he does do another movie after that, called basic, which is a sam jackson john travolta like military thriller which is not a bad film. Pretty good little cat and mouse movie um chris klein is the lead of rollerball dean cain's brother.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, uh, john mcterran is is someone who, like you know, in the 80s and 90s was a a plus director. Uh, made huge movies and just hasn't again kind of leaves with a bad taste.
Speaker 1:Um, and then my, my main person, uh, is this who you're gonna spotlight, spotlight, let's see, erica, do you have anybody who you were kind of kicking the tires on, or people that you think have lost it and haven't really had their comeback yet?
Speaker 3:I'm waiting for david wayne to come and make then another good comedy. For me it's been. I think his last movie I'm looking it up came out in 2018.
Speaker 1:Which one was that?
Speaker 3:A Feudal and Stupid Gesture.
Speaker 1:Did you see it? I've never seen it. Okay, so a little bit of a. Yeah, I don't know it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but David Wayne directed one of my all-time favorite movies, Wet Hot American Summer.
Speaker 2:They came together.
Speaker 3:They came together, wanderlust.
Speaker 1:Which we still thank you for yeah you're welcome and role models.
Speaker 3:Those are, in my opinion, his four. I mean, he doesn't have a lot that he's directed. It looks like he's directed six or seven movies directed. It looks like he's directed six or seven movies, um, but I am learning that he has directed a series called mr throwback which premiered on peacock last year. Never seen it.
Speaker 3:It's a show, um, so I'm not sure it's a real show yeah, it is a show, but, um, yeah, I'd love to see him. I mean, he's like he's come out with some like just his sense of his humor in these movies, because he does write a lot of that stuff too. I would like to see him. I'm like you, you've got more, you've got more fire under you, like let's see it I also one.
Speaker 1:One last little slice of the pie here before we get into our, our filmmakers that we brought to the table here, is that this is this is also different from just taking a really long break and like a hiatus, to where we don't know what Todd field is doing for 15 years and then, after little children, we don't know if we're going to get anything. And then we get tar, and then we get Tar Right and same with Terrence Malick, where it was 20 years between his last film and then coming back with the Thin Red Line, and then obviously, like we're so back after the Thin Red Line and so, but we were never really, we were just gone, we weren't like in a bad spot.
Speaker 2:I think it's also really interesting to think about, like when this happened to someone like Scorsese, right Like New York, new York, after hours, you know, keen of comedy, we're all considered flops. Sure, now two of those movies have been completely reclaimed after hours. And keen of comedy, um, but then, like good fellas was like the, the comeback, the, the, you know the return.
Speaker 1:Um, so we are kind of prisoners to time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit Right, so like you know, some of these movies in the next 20 years may may become the next after hours or cane of comedy.
Speaker 1:Um, okay. So who wants to go first with their director? Who? Who came all the way back from a bad place?
Speaker 3:I'll go, yeah. So I struggled with this little assignment for a while, but I realized there's. Wes Craven is a perfect example of this Perfect example, example perfect example. Yeah, so his um, his directed features start with the last house on the left in 1972. I mean an iconic horror movie. Um had a really great remake later on, actually, that I enjoyed um, and then he goes on like a pretty hot streak for a second with the hills have eyes to like to come out of the gate with those two, I mean truly like to really like.
Speaker 3:I mean he was setting the tone for horror back then. I mean doing stuff that not a lot of people were doing. I think the hills have eyes is an incredible series.
Speaker 1:Um, it's terrifying um I love that remake too, the remakes are so good as well um he just for those two movies there in the 70s too, when a lot of the other stuff that was happening on on maybe a more like global prestigious scale you think of like the exorcist getting nominated for best picture and and then you have the Omen and some other stuff, and I know there's other like grimy stuff, like dirty, gritty, really hardcore stuff that's coming out in the 70s, like Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Of course have eyes were really so influential for for not only what would come further or later in his career, but also just for setting the tone of of that um, kind of like grindhouse yeah style um there in the 70s I agree, they're both.
Speaker 3:They're very raw, like, like you said, gritty films, you know, kind of like he was doing something back then with horror which is amazing. And so then after that he had a couple of movies I have not seen Stranger in Our House, deadly Blessings, swamp Thing and then we have and I don't really consider that his total fallout just yet, because we do have a nightmare on elm street which is like hello he literally created one of the most iconic villains in horror history with um freddy krueger, and then after that, like the year after that, we have hills, have eyes too, which again, like this, is kind of where we start to see a little bit of the dip in the career. So throughout the late 80s is where things kind of went south for him. Um, we had um in 86, deadly friend 88, the serpent and the rainbow, all right, but pretty good, I ride for that it's so hard it's
Speaker 1:weird, it's fucking weird I haven't seen I think it. I think what did we do a ranking? What did we do on wes a long time ago? I think we did do a ranking that, that one's way up there, it really is so a lot of these like yeah, I think probably I do agree, though, that this is where the dip starts to happen, really after the serpent in the rainbow yeah, and then so shocker.
Speaker 3:And then the people under the stairs which, I believe, got pretty rough reviews.
Speaker 1:A little bit of a cult classic that's been reclaimed.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not that successful of a film.
Speaker 3:I don't think and that's kind of like when I was doing a lot of this research is I wanted to know. Like you know, not only did they fall off, it's mostly like a box office flop, but also like critically like you know the people were just not about this movie back then. You know, I think you know some of these movies could definitely be.
Speaker 1:You know you could ride for them like years later as being like a West classic, for sure, but Well, just to from where he has already come from, with the last house on the Left and the Hills have Eyes and creating Freddy Krueger and Nightmare on Elm Street. Like we are definitely declining in quality.
Speaker 3:Exactly Because, I mean, it's not just like he had some like some really good hits, like you are making history in horror.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, I mean so, well said.
Speaker 3:Especially like especially. The gap between people under the stairs and hills have eyes is large but even a nightmare on elm street, it's it. This, that's like no one. That's a household name I mean and it's just such a classic 80s horror I mean like literally historical, like what he did with that, but I think, as like a real horror fan, like hills have eyes is like that's rough you know, but, anyway.
Speaker 3:So after the people under the stairs that was in 91, we have 94, west craven's new nightmare, um, and then, uh, 95 vampire in brooklyn. So then, obvious. So we're obviously like in a massive dip. But then 96, our beloved iconic scream does it again I mean does it again with ghost puts two, two villains now in the pantheon of all-time greats it really is crazy to think that like somebody like Wes Craven did it not once, but twice with two Like you will see these characters in Halloween stores for the rest of all time.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like that's crazy to have created two household iconic villains that little kids know forever know. I mean, what a comeback like when I saw, when I found this after doing my like looking up all these directors, and I was like, well, this is the comeback story, in my opinion. Like I mean they're still making scream movies today, yeah um, so yeah, he had scream one and 2 come out simultaneously, 96 and 97. He had a movie called Music of the Heart, not sure what that is.
Speaker 2:Meryl Streep yeah, that's a Meryl Streep. She's like a drama teacher or a musical teacher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a music teacher, okay.
Speaker 2:So insane, just like the weirdest little non-West Cravenven west craven movie I've I've ever seen. I remember you know what it was discovering that it was fucking. It's a weinstein movie, it's mirror max, yeah, so just huge payday, I'm sure yeah, probably probably if and yeah and you get to work with meryl streep yeah, pretty cool but one of the oddest outliers in any filmography in history Totally.
Speaker 3:So then, after that, in the 2000s, we have Scream 3, Cursed which.
Speaker 1:Release the Kraven cut of Cursed.
Speaker 3:I've been saying this for so long. But then we had Red Eye, which I think red eye did pretty well in theaters. Um, I really enjoyed it when it came out. Um, so that one I you could definitely argue that maybe there was another like little dip after scream.
Speaker 2:No, I agree with you. No argument for me not very great either.
Speaker 1:I I think really after scream 2. Scream 2 still a lot of fun, but we are just kind of like playing the hits and that's sort of why a new nightmare, even though a new nightmare has been. That's like scream before scream, right. That's when he first starts to dabble with this like meta, meta context of of a movie within a movie and being aware of pop culture, um, and and of the freddy krueger character himself, much, much like how the Ghostface Killer becomes like meta context with the stab films within the Scream movies. But again, scream 2 is just playing the hits. And then Music of the Heart, scream 3, cursed, which is not a great movie that I still read for reasons unknown, because I haven't seen what's supposed to be actually a great movie.
Speaker 1:Um, that I still read for it. For reasons unknown, because I haven't seen what's supposed to be actually a good movie. No one has. But then I I do agree. Red eye is like we're back again yeah, red eye was good.
Speaker 3:He has two, uh two other movies right after that, um, which are well, there's a. There is a six-year break in between Red Eye and his next film, which is my Soul to Take. I feel like I've seen this, but I also don't know, like I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 1:It's about like a coven of Of like I don't even know what you would really call them. It's kind of like they're vampires, they're like undead, I don't know. I remember watching it, rewatching it. Saw it when it first came out, then re-watched it for our exercise that we did on him a couple years ago.
Speaker 3:It's not good um, and then his last film is scream 4 2011 the second, the second best screen movie yeah, right, again another little dip and back up pretty great. And then, yeah, unfortunately a few years after that he passes away. So rip to the horror king.
Speaker 1:I mean honestly, um and someone who is so good at reinventing themselves yeah and staying current you know, didn't get stuck, much like how garland has reinvented himself here with these war movies. Craven is able to come out of that grindhouse 70s um, you know, just like making movies on the cheap and then is able to work with some somebody like new line cinema and do the big hollywood uh production, but but do it in a way where he gets to create west or, uh, freddy krueger and and really make a name for himself with within the branding of of a studio. And so yeah, he was, he was a legend, he is a legend.
Speaker 3:Scream and a nightmare on Elm street have a very similar vibe. You know, we've got like the teen, uh, like the high school, like Wes loved killing teens.
Speaker 2:I mean Wes loved killing teens. I mean, let's call it how it is. Last.
Speaker 1:House on the Left.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Coven or whatever that movie was.
Speaker 1:That's teens too.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. Wes was fantastic and I think again, just a great example of someone who had a long career and shows Alex Garland that you can have dips. You can have ups and downs, so don't just hang it up, please. I hope you're listening. I'll go next.
Speaker 2:My guy also kind of probably a student of Wes Craven, someone who came up through the horror genre is Sam Raimi, and again someone who has had multiple the horror genre is, uh, sam Raimi, and and again someone who has had multiple dips and comebacks, um, but he opens up his career with with six pretty good movies with evil dead. Evil dead to dark man, army of darkness, uh, the quick and the dead and a simple plan, all pretty high, highly rated on letterbox above a 3.5.
Speaker 1:Um, and then, and also movies that like, I think, people like they were beloved at the time and still are like especially that the Bruce Campbell ash trilogy there, but then have become, yeah, like ash in the evil dead and everything right.
Speaker 2:That that that franchise has spawned here in recent memory like really shows the legs also you know kind of, you know evil dead, the evil dead, three evil dead movies, very horror inspired, but like dark man is like this weird, like neo noir superhero movie, quick in the dead. Is this western uh with, with leo uh, I believe leo's in that, yeah, and a simple plan is like a crime caper movie.
Speaker 2:Um, then he does for the love of the game, uh, and the gift yeah which you know according to the numbers, are some of his lesser works I really like the gift.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, even though, like I, works. I really liked the gift Uh yeah, even though, like I think we've talked about the gift before like Keanu Reeves as a bad guy, clay Kate Blanchett as this medium in like the South kind of an interesting film. But then then he reaches completely new heights by taking on the Spider-Man uh series here in the early twos with spider-man and spider-man 2, which you know so so, for love of the game and the gift is when you're kind of like, yeah, has he lost it?
Speaker 1:has he, has he lost his fastball?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, but then again, you know, reinventing himself and going into a genre even though he kind of dabbled in it, in dark man, kind of a brand new genre for him. And then he, he, you know, slips on the banana within this genre with spider-man 3, which at the time was hated, uh, is still regarded as like a a really bad superhero movie and and a meme movie. Now, right, like evil peter is like dancing, is like the one of the memes out there, um, and and it's like, oh, he, he might be done and that's in 2007 and like it's it could be over for for sam, uh, because that was a huge movie that did no business or did bad business, was hated by critics. But then two years later he goes back to the genre that that you know he started in with drag me to hell, and it's it's classic sam ramey material and it's just like we are. We are back.
Speaker 3:We are back now however, I've never seen drag me to hell drag you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to see drag me to hell. Really really good fun movie. Justin long um is yeah, yeah, uh, allison loman, who, like that, blows me away.
Speaker 1:You've never seen it. That's such a fun blind spot to have yeah filmography.
Speaker 3:It's so good I love sam raimi too yeah it's, it's it's again.
Speaker 2:It's much like the evil dead movies, like it's the perfect mix of, like comedy, horror, grossness, some great behind the scenes stuff in that too. Um, and then I I've never seen movie, but I remember when it came out and, as the Wizard of Oz expert on the pod, what is Oz the Great and the Powerful and how bad is it? Because that movie again, once again, was just a gigantic flop. And you've got James Franco in the middle of it, mila Kunis, whois, who you know again, like, was a star at the time, but like this was a a tanking job for her as well. Um, huge miss there, huge miss. Why they don't do fucking, what's it called?
Speaker 3:uh, what's it?
Speaker 2:wicked at that point instead of instead of this weird cgi prequel. Um, really interesting, uh, but again a huge miss. He does go back into marvel and he does dr strange multiverse of madness which one of the more successful middling movies right yeah, middling uh reviews. I mean it has Touches of Sam Raimi.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's not the original.
Speaker 2:Nevermind, no, okay, no this is the the second one.
Speaker 1:Okay, uh, the original is the one people really like. Yeah, the original one.
Speaker 2:people like that's Scott Derrickson. It does the original.
Speaker 1:He'd be good. He's another jerk for this exercise. Yeah right.
Speaker 2:And so yeah, so okay, it's an okay movie. Now we need to see, though does he have it? Can he come back from Oz the Great and the Powerful 2026,. We've got a movie coming out called Send Help. I'm seeing this. I had no idea I'm looking at this right now. Survival horror film Survival horror Rachel McAdams, Dylan O'Brien, Dennis Haysbert Our guy.
Speaker 1:President Palmer. So we could be so back. We could be so back in 2026. Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:And Dylan O' so back we could be so back in 2026, yeah, okay, yeah, and dylan o'brien is gonna have a moment here in 2025, um, coming out with a movie coming out of sundance. Uh, so his star may be on the rise he's one of the perfect time.
Speaker 1:One of the best parts of saturday night is totally so like he's.
Speaker 1:Listen, you're talking about my maze runner, so he's, he's always in a good place so, yeah, I think sam ramey is is uh poised for a comeback here to to do it again, even yeah, to do it again yeah again, right, yeah, because he, he did it, did it in the mid-2000s, for sure um, which is a lot like my guy where my guys had a few dips actually and is poised to to maybe be so back here in 2025. Surprisingly you you know scorsese's really interesting you bring him up, I feel, like a lot of high profile um, kind of like legendary directors. At this point you could find little little spots in their career, right, um, but but I think sometimes the name, the, the brand of a director outweighs almost any sort of stigma that they may have attached to them because of their failures that they've experienced in their career. And for me I was surprised to see that spike lee really embodies that. You know, he's somebody that I think is just really well regarded as as this master filmmaker of independent cinema who came up in the nineties there, one of the Sundance starlings kind of um, and and somebody who has just always made really good movies. Well, guess what? That's not really the case, um and it it at least it hasn't been the case throughout his entire career. So I mean he, he really makes it big with Do the Right Thing in 1989, of course comes on the scene and that really starts a run of of great movies for him for like five years, six years because he goes Jungle Fever, malcolm X, crooklyn and Clock clockers, which leads him all the way up to 1995. Those are all at least four star films, if not like four and a half five star movies, you know malcolm x and clockers, so good, um. And then in 1996 to 2006 he goes on a 10-year run of movies that are good but not great. So there's ebbs and flows in here. Girl six and get on the bus not that successful. He got game though.
Speaker 1:And then summer of sam, followed by bamboozled and 25th hour. There's some great movies mixed in there. Um, he got game and 25th hour especially, I know bamboozled and summer of sam have their followings as well. Hour, especially, I know bamboozled and somewhere with sam have their followings as well. And then he has she hate me less successful, but kind of like a fun, weird dark comedy. Um, and then inside man with denzel, which is is another like four and a half star film, in my opinion. And then we start to hit the have we uh-oh like, have we Um moment after inside man, where he has miracle at St Anna which I think has a moment at, might have a moment of revival, uh, coming up.
Speaker 2:Oh, I cause I, I, I feel like and it's interesting, it didn't happen with the five bloods, yeah, but because we're going to get a spike lee movie soonish you think that's when the people are going to be. I think that could be one that people go back and be like, oh no, he was, he was just ahead interesting, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, he follows that up, though, with red hook summer not a good movie. And then this gets really tough. These three movies and this is where, like it might shock you to believe, but like spike lee, from 2013 up until he comes back in 2018, like not a good director, not making good choices. Like, again, the public persona of him being courtside at basketball games, the world's biggest knicks fan and new york sports fan. Like always in the public eye and always someone who is going to be so well respected and be asked to present, you know, awards at the Oscars or or have a moment doing something. It was not for his current contributions, though, to to modern filmmaking during this time. Red hook summer.
Speaker 1:The old boy remake just a huge mess such a big miss, don't ever like even spike, like just nobody fuck with park chan. Wook films like, just why would you do that? Um. And then the sweet blood of jesus, which I need to watch this movie again because I can remember this was like I. I rented this movie.
Speaker 1:This was like at the fading moments of when you could still, um, like, find stuff in stores to rent or whatever in 2014 and just not a good movie about a guy basically becoming like possessed by, by these religious spirits, um, to do, to like, and then murders ensue or whatever. Really not good. And then shy rack, which I saw, shy rack at the grand. I'll never forget that experience. Went with a friend and we both shout out, cody larson and we were both like thinking this movie's going to really have something to say about the violence that's happening in chicago and it was just such a big miss, it it is like it and it feels so weird to say that like a spike lee movie is tone deaf but like it tries to kind of be like a musical at times.
Speaker 1:It tries to do so much um and it is. It is one of his least successful films in my opinion. So we've really fallen off the cliff at this point when we're talking about like malcolm x and uh, do the right thing and 25th hour and inside man, like the highest of highs that a director can experience and we're really in a bad place here. Like it hurts me to say, but he was really really in a bad place and needed something like Black Klansman in 2018. So bad. And you could tell what a moment it was. This comeback for Spike Lee. He wins his first yes, his first Academy Award for the screenplay of this film.
Speaker 1:An incredible moment where Sam Jackson gets to be the one that presents it to him on stage. They embrace, they hug. It's this huge moment. You know, like I don't know, it's like a. It's like a commentator in sports, not trying to have bias if it's a nationally televised game or something like that. Like that's what you know. A presenter at the academy awards or any award show is told like you're. You can't really show too much emotion. You know, a presenter at the academy awards or any award show is told like you're, you can't really show too much emotion. You know, when you go out there just present the award or whatever sam jackson but they chose sam like it seemed like a foregone conclusion that this
Speaker 1:was going to be spike's moment and it was just a moment of elation, like such a great moment, um, prince had just passed away, so spikes in this all purple suit, like just looking amazing, a huge moment, um. And that was like, uh, oh, we're so back. Like usually, like you know, it takes two right for us to like prove it, and he does prove it with the five bloods, um and a a couple of years later, and that that was. We needed the five bloods. I'll, I won't, I'll never forget, in the middle of lockdown, that movie coming to Netflix and being one of the better films.
Speaker 1:It was like straight to video that we could watch at home during that time. So black Klansman 2018 to five bloods 2020. We're so back. We've had this huge Oscar moment and it's like, okay, now spike's just always been spike again and that's why I feel like he will forever be a legend and remembered for those moments and not for Red Hook Summer or the Sweet Blood of Jesus or Chirac or these real low points that he experienced in his career.
Speaker 1:And it was pretty. It was like it was a bell graph, like it was a bell curve when it happened, like there weren't really too many, like blips where it comes back up, Like when he was down, he was down and, and so now what I'm really hoping is after black clansmen and after the five bloods, it's been five years and now again we're playing with fire here because when he tried to remake a park chan wook film a classic that was maybe as bad as it ever got for him with the old boy remake. And now we're remaking an Akira Kurosawa film. Highest to lowest is the spike title, highest two, the number two, lowest, and this is a remake of the Kurosawa film High to Low. And I to say I'm'm nervous would be putting it lightly, because if this movie's bad, this is really gonna suck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it's really it can't be, though, because it's denzel right. He usually doesn't miss when he's with denzel this is very true.
Speaker 1:But then I'm, there's like some stunt casting in here, though we have like asap rocky is on the like just people who have I spice, people who have never acted before, people who I'm like, I I again like, if it's stunt casting and you're in it for one scene is maybe like because, high to low, great great movie with like hostage interrogation, like a really great contained film where, like, depending on what these celebrities and I I use that term in placement of like the, the term actor like depending on what they're asked to do in this movie, I think it could be okay. Um, it could also not be okay, though, and then we're like in a dark, bad place again. So, but I mean, like, from where we stand right now, in spike, we trust, and Denzel and spike we trust. So I think we're in a good place here right now. We're back, we like with spike, we are so back right now. So I'm just happy to like.
Speaker 3:What a time to be alive it is 824, but it looks like it's going to come out on Apple TV.
Speaker 1:I did not know that.
Speaker 2:Regardless, I'm excited to revisit the works of spikely because I don't think we've ever done a, a traditional deep dive like hall of fame. Spikely, yeah, uh, episode. So uh, I look forward to that week for sure, absolutely, um, yeah, but man, yeah, you're right, playing with fire is so true to try and do a kurosawa film yeah, um, so I had two other people who I was possibly thinking about doing for this exercise.
Speaker 1:I feel like we could do ridley scott every episode and just not get tired of it, or maybe we would at some point, and so I was like we'll keep ridley on the bench.
Speaker 2:Another person who, though, goes up and down constantly For sure.
Speaker 1:And who like hindsight being 2020, we can now say like some moments weren't actually as bad as they felt in the moment, because, even though, like I've always loved the Counselor or Alien Covenant, these movies have now completely been reclaimed and would be considered bright spots in his career compared to something else.
Speaker 2:Kind of a down moment currently for him, right, I mean Gladiator 2 does business and is okay but, it's nothing like Gladiator, right Like the highs of Gladiator at least.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely not. And then catherine bigelow was one who I almost pivoted to at the last minute because the way that she came back, um, after like I think it's called like k-19, the widow maker, a harrison ford movie.
Speaker 2:And then she had a sub movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it is a submarine movie, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Um, and then she had another film prior to that which were like far cries from where she was with with uh, point break and strange days and really was experiencing a lull in her career.
Speaker 1:And then what brought her back was like military action, you know, based on a true story kind of stuff, with the hurt locker and then zero dark 30. And I mean like I'm so happy to be back in a place where Catherine Bigelow someone who like doesn't work as much as we would like them to because she is such a talented filmmaker but we are in a good place with her right now where, at least within you know the last 15 years, we've gotten to really, really good Catherine Bigelow movies. So it just an such an interesting thing because hollywood you always hear about how it is it can be and sorry, as you're about to move there, but like it can be such an unforgiving town when, when you fuck up and and so many huge, successful directors who have reached the mountaintop, who have had a seat at the table, no longer hear their name get called because of one bad movie.
Speaker 1:So happy that Garland's back. Happy that all of the people that we brought to the table here today are back or at least went out at a good place. Shout out Wes Craven and Emma Roberts and all of their work on Scream 4. But yeah, I don't know. And Emma Roberts and all of their work on Scream 4. But yeah, I don't know. When you get attached to directors and then they have a comeback like this, it is like an athlete or someone who you follow in sports and you get to see them traded to a new team and then they experience success in a new way. Or a musician, after a couple of bad albums, have a big comeback and be able to go back on a world tour. So I don't know. So we're all tied to success in some way or another.
Speaker 2:Everyone loves a comeback story. Everyone loves a comeback story great way to put it. Um, I have a couple of news items. Okay, if you want to do. Some people are saying, ah, okay, uh, people are saying that and I can't remember if we've covered this art already or not. I don't think I've talked to you guys about it, but david fincher has announced his next film.
Speaker 2:It will be at netflix, of course yeah, of course uh, it will be written by quentin tarantino and it is a universe. It's not a direct sequel, but it is in the same universe. You can't even talk right now once upon a time in hollywood starring brad pitt as a stuntman stuntman as these what?
Speaker 1:cliff, cliff, booth yeah um, in absolutely insane.
Speaker 2:I can't believe. Who are your sources? The sources are the. Are the dailies, like the hollywood reporter?
Speaker 1:do you subscribe to the dailies? Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, that's where I usually get my people are saying um, yeah, this is something that is happening.
Speaker 2:Uh, apparently, um, you know, I I guess, I guess we're gonna get a sequel to once upon a time in hollywood, written by quentin, directed by david starring brad, on the netflix streaming service. How do we feel?
Speaker 3:I don't know, I don't like netflix. Sorry, I don't know, but I'm, I'm, if it's true, I'm very intrigued. But why are we putting it on netflix? Why, well?
Speaker 1:I've I've never agreed 100% agree. Start with that. However, there's nothing that David's done for Netflix that has been bad. That's true. Mindhunter, goaded Mank, love it. The killer, amazing. So I feel like he's one of these directors that is kind of like whatever fuck it You're going to make me not have to.
Speaker 2:Oh, he obviously doesn't care yeah.
Speaker 1:You're going to make kind of like whatever, fuck it, you're gonna make me not have to. He doesn't care. Yeah, you're gonna make me not have to put five different financiers before the title of my film awesome thanks for the blank check netflix, yeah. So he is kind of there's an asterisk there to him and and working with netflix.
Speaker 2:I feel like, because we've seen it, we've seen it be well and, and I think I think now it's just he might just do this the rest of his career and you just kind of have to accept it that, like Fincher, might just be a Netflix guy the rest of his life.
Speaker 1:Which means we don't get physical releases of his movies. Which means people don't talk about him longer than like a week after they come out.
Speaker 2:Which really, really sucks, but like he obviously doesn't give a fuck about that and like we're losers for giving a fuck about that, but whatever. Uh, but the content of this is just like so odd it's really surprising uh, that, tarantino, you know, apparently this is apparently this script, I guess, is what kind of started out as tarantino's movie critic script that like was leaked yeah, okay that became, I guess, as he kept writing, it became more about cliff booth, for some reason, and now and again like not a direct sequel, but in in the same, in that same universe, I guess in that same world.
Speaker 3:Like a spinoff kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess a spinoff would be the right way to say it, but just a really, really odd algamation of people together. Can Fincher do Tarantino?
Speaker 1:Well, here's what I think is most important to ask ourselves Can Tarantino write for Fincher and when? I think of some of the more like intense moments, not only in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, but throughout you know Tarantino's career at large, like I think, of the basement scene in inglorious bastards, or or even in once upon a time in hollywood when cliff does go to spawn ranch and it turns into like a horror film for 10-15 minutes, yeah, and it's super intense.
Speaker 1:like could he have, could there be the stamina to, to to write uh, something like twohour long film like that that then Fincher gets to take all of his really adept and skillful vision of doing something all the way from Seven to the Killer, and in making it work, I think so, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:It was announced during cinema con, but with that as the premise. I don't know how do you feel about that, because I could see them doing that for like an original story or taking maybe another part. And you know, like cause Tarantino, obviously a huge history buff but loves to do the revisionist history and do and write things his own way. So I almost feel like if they, if they were teaming up and it was, and it was something like that, where it was like oh, they're going to do something like in the French revolution or whatever, like fuck it Cool, sign me up.
Speaker 2:But but I don't know, but in like sixties Hollywood with with cliff booth as a stump man, I mean, I guess I guess fincher can probably do it, because he did something like adjacent to it with mank right, um, but it's just such a weird. I I just feel like it's such a weird project for him to be like yeah, I'll go play in someone else's sandbox. And also for quentin to let something like once upon a time in hollywood, which he wrote a book for, yeah, he's, you know, he he wrote tv episodes for like develop the whole world and then to hand that over.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess I'm glad it's fincher that he's handing it to um, but yeah, just gonna be really interesting if fincher can do pop like that, because or or is it just like cliff booth becomes?
Speaker 1:like is it grimy? Yeah, right, yeah I don't know okay, what else you got for us? That's, that's enough.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's the biggest thing that I've been thinking about, for a couple weeks now, wow, um, but yeah, it was so funny because the news came out on april 1st at cinema con and so many people thought it was fake, like so many people were scared to report it. Um, but uh, people in in tarantino's camps, people in fincher camps, have come out and said, yes, this is a real thing wow so we have that to look forward to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it happens, if it that's going to be like the elephant in the room every week. Now I'm just going to be like what's the update? Hey, you over there. We need to address that. That's so weird, yeah, huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It could go down. I mean, listen, I think I said this back post Oscars um, or maybe it was the Bong Joon-ho episode but where it was like how can we don't just get these superstar team up movies behind the camera where it's, you know, like a person who's super hot with sound and a person who's super hot, um, editing and writing and all that stuff. Tarantino is one of the most accomplished screenwriters of this generation. Yeah. So there you go. Fincher's one of the most accomplished, yeah, film. And then, if kurt baxter does the edit, and, depending on who's behind the camera, is dp and who's going to do the score, like we might have our all-star, you know. 2013 golden state warriors here.
Speaker 2:It is like kevin durant joining the warriors. It's so strange um, wow, wild.
Speaker 1:Okay, um any final thoughts. You got any news for us, erica?
Speaker 3:no tv has a chokehold on me right now so people are saying that erica's jumping ship. You watch, you watch the studio it's so good it's amazing it's probably I have what six episodes left to look forward to. I've already, like I caught myself during the fourth episode feeling like actual depression, thinking like wait, this is going to end someday.
Speaker 1:Oh, no yeah.
Speaker 3:It is like actually it's.
Speaker 2:It's catnip.
Speaker 3:It's giving me like exactly what I'm looking for in comedy right now, you know, and it's it's feeding my soul Berg fan, this is just right up my alley, it just screams me. And then on top of that you're throwing it like in real, like real life Hollywood drama, right like I think it's so fun to watch, like you know, like Martin Scorsese, that Martin Scorsese episode, and then like the Zac Efron and Olivia Wilde episode where it's like there's all these like if you don't really pay attention I don't mean to sound like pretentious when I say this but if you're not really like tapped into like hollywood drama, I feel like a lot of stuff will go over your head.
Speaker 3:You know, like with the olivia wild episode, them kind of making this nod to her being like awful to work with and that's kind of a whole nod to like the don't worry, darling drama that happened and it's just creative. And there's this like it's so subtle and like just that like really like like nuanced comedy and I'm obsessed, I mean I, I I can't remember what his last name is, it's like Bern something. Ike his best friend on the show.
Speaker 2:Oh, Ike Bernholtz yeah.
Speaker 3:He is so funny, Him and Seth together. Just this chaotic duo.
Speaker 2:A guy who usually is like a, you know someone who comes in and throws one inning.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like is finally getting like a co-lead here and like, yeah, he's blowing me away well, and they were in neighbors together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, as was zach zach efron it's just funny to see all these like little connections that you obviously know that seth is pulling all these strings to get these people in here, where I love that, where it all feels like an inside joke.
Speaker 3:You know, like the whole show so far has felt like one big inside joke for fans of them, and I'm it's so brilliant, I'm so glad that I signed up for apple tv finally, because I'm also like binging severance too, which is I'm like curious about it. I'm not like it's not my cup of tea fully, but I don't know, dude, I'm just like in deep with television, like obviously riding the high off of white lotus, but then the last of us just started, which you know I'm a, I've played the game several times and, um, yeah, I don't know, guys, fuck movies, let's talk about tv.
Speaker 2:We've done tv episodes in the past. Maybe we'll have to.
Speaker 1:Might be time, yeah, maybe time revisit um well, yeah, we'll, we'll think about that. Uh, the movie calendar does fill up a little bit, but though there will of course be some, some down weeks. Um, much like how we discussed ebbs and flows earlier on this episode I'm sure we could fit in TV here soon.
Speaker 1:We do get sinners, though, next week. I know we teased that at the end of last week's episode. However, that was a limited release. It now goes wide this following weekend, so really excited to finally get to see the new Ryan Coogler film a Western with vampires.
Speaker 2:People are saying Googlers best film, loveler's best film. Love to hear that, love to hear that um, and you know there's been some.
Speaker 1:There's been some good like um I I don't know. I don't know if this becomes action horror and I know that we've had some sci-fi horror, some social horror, um already come out this year. But you know, in in sitting in my theater earlier today, I saw a lot of really good trailers for some scary movies coming up, and so maybe this starts the run of of kind of some of that stuff that we had last year in 2024, of like good scary movie week after week after week. So that would be really nice, um, any, any, uh, anticipation, extra anticipation that we didn't say last year or last week for centers I'm just.
Speaker 2:I'm revved up for hayley steinfeld covered in blood I'm excited yeah, I'm excited for like um revved up suck me dry, hayley.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm on my neck, yeah sure I know josh allen's coming for you, bud careful okay I knew what you meant.
Speaker 3:I was just kidding um, I can't. I'm really excited for some southern fucking gothic.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna make you a shirt for the San Juans this weekend that says suck me dry, haley Steinfeld. Oh my gosh, that's awesome you know what?
Speaker 3:hell? Yeah, so until next time, please follow. Excuse the intermission on.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. You know what Hell? Yeah. So until next time, please follow Excuse the Intermission on Instagram, the three of us on Letterboxd to track what we're watching between shows, and we'll talk to you next time on Excuse the Intermission, where movies still matter. Bye, thank you.
